Re: Ancient wares and present values

[Roy and/or Janet Miller <millers@inetnebr.com>]

Paul Grammens wrote:

> Well, Jeff, in your world perhaps the only choices are good and evil, but in
> mine, sometimes you have to choose between "bad" and "less bad".  Bad would
> be letting all the old software sit on deteriorating, original
> copy-protected diskettes until it's all gone. Less bad is to archive it
> online for posterity.  One of the attractions of the Apple II is the large
> body of historic software for it, if you limit that to the dwindling supply
> of original software, you're going to end up with an Apple II user group the
> size of the Coleco Adam user group.

My first computer was a Coleco ADAM. I still love the machine. What killed it
was 1) Abandonment by it's creator (like Apple with the ][), and 2) Piracy.
After the ADAM was abandoned there was a increase in users, and lots of reduced
price Coleco software, but if you wanted to get new software you had to buy it,
and you had to buy it at prices that made it worth the while of the artists.
ADAM users didn't want to do that, so piracy was rampant, and the developers
slowly, one by one, closed up shop, or moved to platforms where what they sold
wasn't ripped off (at least not as much.)

> Your way, the Apple II rapidly becomes extinct.  The existing way, which
> will prevail no matter how many tantrums your ilk throws, will preserve the
> Apple II for future hobbiests.  I know there are a few people who still use
> their Apple II as their primary computing platform, and more power to them
> in their excentricity, but frankly, the future is people like me

How modest

> who just
> cherish and admire them as historical artifacts.

Museum pieces only. Gathering dust on a shelf somewhere.

> I prefer original
> diskettes, BTW, but many of mine are no longer usable and new ones can't be
> had. I also like to run them from a hard disk. I  wonder if this obsession
> with copy protection didn't contribute mightily to the demise of the
> platform. For example, I have Print Shop for the IIgs and the same
> generation of Print Shop for the PC.

Copy protection slowly faded out, and or was replaced by other tricks, like
having to have a 128 pg. manual and having to find certain words on certain
pages in order to launch the program. In the PC world, since so much was driven
by businesses, which didn't have time to fool with such nonsense, and wouldn't
buy products that were copy protected (which is why Lotus finally removed it
from 1-2-3) Various methods were used to reduce the copying. As far as the ][
however, schools are some of the worst offenders, I've got dozens if not
hundreds of disks that came with computers bought from teachers/schools where
there are all kinds of software on copies but not on original disks. At first I
thought, "What's with these people, they make copies and throw away the original
disks?" but, in time, and with some hints from some teacher friends of mine, it
soaked it.

> You can install the IIgs version to
> hard disk, BUT you have to insert the original floppy in the drive every
> time you use it (wow, how... convenient, especially for the grade school I
> bought it from.)  The PC version installs and runs from the hard disk, like
> just about all other PC software. No wonder the teacher replaced the IIgs
> with a PC.
> Another teacher asked me to try to find a downloadable version of some
> educational software that was copy protected and no longer sold. She was
> down to her last usable diskette.

Never heard of Copy ][+??  Or Locksmith?

> Unfortunately, I couldn't find it
> anywhere. I would have cheerfully violated it's copyright.  You'll be
> relieved to know that those Apple II's have since been scrapped, so there's
> no longer any reason for that teacher to contemplate violating any Apple II
> copyrights.  Praise the Lord! The fewer Apple II's left, the less piracy!
> Get the axe, Jeff!
>
> > A big part of the problem is people here have been pushing developers
> > away.  Wouldn't it be better if the developers themselves were to
> > stick around and preserve their software?  Unfortunately, some were
> > driven away by people here.  Nathan Mates is no longer around to make
> > his software available,
>
> There's a good example. As it happens, I got my first Apple II just weeks
> before he had his melt-down. I downloaded his FAQ, and the next time I tried
> to access his web page, he had a note on it saying he'd reformatted his hard
> disk to make sure he'd done all he could to spite the Apple II community.
> Like QC, the guy needs professional help.

Not really, he's perfectly happy now, not having to deal with people like DrTom,
Ruby and you. If you were treated as he was, you might react in a similar
fashion. After all, why do anything to benefit those who took you work and spit
in your face. The only really sad thing is that Nate was pushed so far and so
hard that he had a bit of trouble telling the difference between his friends and
those you hated him.

>
> > Had these developers not been pushed away, there would be more
> > software being created for the Apple II today.
>
> No.  There would be no Apple II community for the developers (both of them?)
> to write software for,

Judging by the activity on eBay, I'd say that the Apple ][ community is much
bigger than either Delphi or csa2, or the combination thereof. On Wednesday I
was in a computer shop here to get some work done on my son's Pentium (Sigh-
don't ask) and there was a ][+, an Apple DMP, Disk ][, and monitor. I asked
about it, there is a high school senior who is saving up his $40 to buy the
system, because he wants one. Now it's my job to contact him and get him to our
recently resurrected Apple ][ club, and to try to reach out to the teachers and
others who still have and use these machines.

> without the ability for new users to download
> software for the Apple II

I agree, but it doesn't have to involve a copyright violation. And that doesn't
tick me off nearly as much as those who deny that it is a violation. I'd have a
lot more tolerance if people would simply say, "I'm making Auto Duel (or
whatever) available for download. The program is copyrighted. If that bothers
your conscience then don't do it. If you are the copyright owner, and you wish
to have it removed, please inform me and it will be." How much better, however,
to contact Lord British and Chuckles and ask for their permission, and post it.
BTW, I've never tried my copy sitting here in the original box with map,
original disk, backups, saved games etc.; is it any good?

> they bought for $1 at a garage sale. (Actually, I
> only wanted the Imagewriter II, the seller insisted that I take the complete
> IIc system too if I bought the printer. I got hooked by the elegant
> design. )
>
> If there were less
> > piracy going on in the Apple II world, more developers would be more
> > comfortable with releasing their software to the world and would
> > therefore be more likely to produce more titles or updates.
> >
>
> I hate to break this to you, but piracy is not the reason there is very
> little new software produced for the A2 platform.

It is one of three reasons; the other two are a dwindling user base, and the
other is increasing difficulty in communicating to those who still have Apple
][s in use. How do you sell an upgrade to Oregon Trails to schools? How do you
reach them? What if you had created some really cool colorful, sound filled //gs
educational software? How do you get the people in school districts who make the
buying decisions to decide to buy your new software? All because there aren't
any software publishers who will try to sell your program for you.

> You seem like a
> reasonable fellow. I'm amazed that you think there'd be more software being
> written, if the Apple II community strictly observed all copyrights. I
> believe there'd be no Apple II community to write software for if you had
> your way. But it's moot. The status quo will prevail.  The dead horse you
> copyright-obsessed types have been beating is long gone, there's just a
> crater there.
> -Paul

As opposed to the dead horse you piracy-obsessed types are beating?

Roy