Re: All this talk of a new GS...

[Frank Carney <frankc@cyberhighway.net>]

Jonas Bevren wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Phoenyx wrote:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:38:12 -0600
> > From: Phoenyx <quazar@dcnet2000.com>
> > Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
> > Subject: Re: All this talk of a new GS...
> >
> > I think at this point, adhering to as many standards as possible is a
> > must. Part of the problems the early Apple2 faced
> > was because there were no standards which left developers in
> > the position of making their own. In the floppy driven world of the A2,
> > this wasn't too bad, but when the system became able to
> > access hard drives, it became more of an issue.
> 
> That's something I hadn't thought about, even though I should be shot for
> failing.
> 
> > There are still other issues to deal with. Perhaps the biggest
> > one is the GS rom. Apple may ignore the emulators, but if a
> > hardware project were developed, they may decide it's time to
> > examine the copyright issues. Since Apple doesn't care about
> > any growth on the II series, it might be possible for someone
> > to aquire the right to use the ROM image. I doubt it would be
> > feasible to try and write clean roms, but I am not extremely
> > familiar with the GS rom anyway. Then again, it may be necessary to
> > create a compatible rom just to make the hardware
> > work.
> 
> I'm unaware of the size/complexity of the GS rom as well. :/  Someone clue
> us in?
> 
> > Some decisions are fairly simple. For instance, I think the
> > mini tower case is probably the best. The current ones are
> > a reasonable size and offer a decent power supply. Of course,
> > it may force the motherboard design to resemble the PC due to
> > the slot locations. At least this design offers the end user
> > the option of selecting which case they want and if this style
> > were followed they could even use the desktop style case.
> 
> woah, woah! =) I'm not talking about some peecee looking piece of crap..er..
> equipment..  What I"m thinking about is something you drop into slot 3 or 4
> and wire to the '816 socket, just like the TWGS.  Of course, it would
> provide a full complement of ram, per se 16 megs (8 megs to emulate IIGS
> ram, and 8 more for whatever: ramdisks, workspace for the emulator), and do
> all of its I/O via the IIgs.
> 
> > Also, it might be better to design this as a kit type of system
> > where the basic electronics are pre-assembled, motherboard and
> > such, but it would still require the end user to finish the
> > product. Then as a service, whoever distributes it could offer
> > to pre-assemble everything. This may also help in the rom issue
> > as you aren't actually offering a new computer, but a project
> > which the user must supply a rom image themselves. In this case
> > though a method of loading the image will be needed.
> 
> Hm.  That's definately a consideration.  I dont swear by not building a
> standard-form motherboard, but in the moment of considering the feasiblility
> of writing clean-room GS roms, you failed to consider the feasibility of
> re-structuring the IIgs's hardware.  I find the first to be far more likely
> to occur than the second.  I'd love love love to see something like this
> come out, but not only for the apple2 world.  We love our apple2's (I miss
> my laser128 like the desert misses the rain), but other poor saps need some
> help too (ie the Atari scene, commodore, etc).  But, since we're on an
> apple2 group, let's focus on the most important stuff: the apple2 =)
> 
> > Well, just a little more to think about.
> 
> You've got me thinking, friend.  Dont doubt it for a minute.
> 
> -
> Jonas

I agree, this needs to be a drop in for the original case.  

Lets look at this on the cheap side of hardware development as well as
the cheap side for hardware.  I am sure there are chips that give you
quite a bit of flexibility in supporting new processors, but the cost to
develop this may be very large.  I was hoping to design this baby using
old motherboard parts laying around the house.  I know some things will
need to be new, but I have got at least ten motherboards for 386 and 486
systems.  When you start talking about supporting SDRAM and hard drives
the cost for development goes way up.  If this thing could start with
logic chips, cpus, and mayber gals for glue then the cost is much
lower.  

Remember this is a hobby and not everyone has access to storage scopes
and other necessary troubleshooting hardware.

On the software side I just thought it might be useful to provide a
monitor program for troubleshooting.  Another possibility would be a
terminal that could either use a dedicated port or one of the IIgses
ports.  Maybe it could even download new cores for development.  Again,
it could be used to support other systems like the Atari and the
Commodore by making different cores!

There is one thing that needs to happen before more things are added. 
Someone needs to get something working before to much discussion of how
hard it will be.  From what I understand of open source projects you
have to have a working program before a project will really take off. 
Anyway, it is a thought.