Re: trying to get an Apple II GS going for fun...

[supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer)]

wizard@direct.ca (Astro) wrote:

>supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) wrote:
>
>>HFS is the ideal 3.5" format for transfer and indeed even for
>>use on the IIGS.  The HFS FST is not a utility.  It is a module of
>>the IIGS System Software.
>
>I'm eagerly awaiting my mail-order System 5.0.4, it'll arrive this
>week...
>In the meantime I am delving into a fair bit of theoretical
>forecasting...
>  
>>All IIGS programs communicate to
>>storage devices through FSTs.  Without a ProDOS FST, GS/OS
>>will not be able to use the ProDOS file system either. 
>
>You load ProDOS by using a boot disk? You would use a ProDOS boot disk
>as opposed to, in my case [given my hardware limitations] the System
>5.0.4 system disk? If this is yes, is the ProDOS boot disk itself a
>disk image?

The confusion comes because there is an OS for the IIe called
ProDOS 8 which uses a file system called ProDOS.  You know
how Windows 95 can use two file systems, one called FAT and
one called FAT32?  Well, ProDOS 8 is the IIe's DOS and the
file system is the same name, ProDOS, without the "8."  And that
is the reason for the confusion.

GS/OS (the operating system in System 5.0.4, System 6.0.1, etc.)
is the IIGS' equivalent of Windows 95.  Now just like Windows
can be stored in either FAT or FAT32 disks, GS/OS based
programs can be stored on ProDOS or HFS disks, your choice
of the file system.  But unlike Windows 95, which is hardwired
to support FAT and FAT32 and unlike MacOS, which is
hardwired to support HFS and HFS+, GS/OS can support ANY
file system for which you provide an FST, a module that you
drop in the the FST folder in the System folder of the boot disk
(which can be either a hard disk or a floppy disk).

Think of GS/OS as having an additional layer.

Graphically, MacOS and Win 95 are like this:

Program -> MacOS (hardwired HFS or HFS+) -> disk

Program -> Win95 (hardwired FAT or FAT32) -> disk

But GS/OS is like the following, just like OS/2 and Linux:

Program -> GS/OS -> FST -> disk

Under GS/OS, you can drop a new FST module file into
the FST folder and access a new kind of file system.  To
the program, it'll be the same thing because it does not
know or care which file system it is.  The same thing can
be done in OS/2 and Linux.  But under MacOS, for
example, you'd need to basically patch the OS, which is
what PC Exchange does.

So why does removing the ProDOS FST prevent GS/OS
from accessing ProDOS disks?  Because GS/OS would
no longer know how to access a ProDOS disk.  Remember,
the FST sits between GS/OS and the disk.  The ProDOS
file system is not hardwired into GS/OS.

If you boot over an AppleShare server over a LocalTalk
network, I think you can even remove the ProDOS FST
completely, but then you can no longer read ProDOS
disks on your local drive.  Naturally, there is an AppleShare
FST too.

>>The concept of the FST is foreign to the Macintosh, which must
>>use hacks like PC Exchange to get around this lack of capability.
>>Linux and OS/2 have the equivalent of FSTs.  Like GS/OS, these
>>two OS are file system independent.
>
>...File System Translators. Sort of like a Driver? But more like ...I
>don't understand Japanese without an interpreter?

It is exactly like a driver.  A driver for file systems.  As new
FSTs become available, they are just dropped in and new kinds
of disks will be usable.

>>You can install the FST from System 6.0.1 into System 5.0.4 and
>>it will work.  It'll even work from a floppy boot disk of 5.0.4.  I've
>>tried it before.
>
>How do you extract the HFS FST from System 6.0.1?

Boot the IIGS (under System 5.0.4 is ok).  Eject the System 5.0.4
disk from Finder.  Stick in the System 6.0.1 disk.  Double click
on the System 6.0.1 disk icon.  Double click on the System folder.
Double click on the FST folder.  Drag the HFS.FST file and
drop it on the System 5.0.4 disks' icon.  Swap disks as prompted.
The HFS.FST is now on the System 5.0.4 disk.  Now drag it and
dump it onto the System folder of the System 5.0.4 disk.  Open
the System folder and find the HFS.FST file.  Select it and drag
it into the FST folder.  Restart the IIGS from the Special menu.
The next time Finder shows up under System 5.0.4, you will
be able to read and write Mac HFS 800k disks.

>>Yes, using .shk archives.  These are made by a program called
>>Shrinkit GS which is similar to StuffIt for the Mac and WinZip for
>>Windows.  Much more efficient than disk images, these archives
>>are compressed.  Disk images are inefficient and are only
>>tolerated by emulator users.
>
>That way, you can load up a disk with way more stuff than just with a
>single disk image. But a disk image would make a self-booting floppy,
>or just a big single file. I guess the System 5.0.4 would not know how
>to read a disk image unaided?

That is true.  It would be the chicken and the egg.  I guess the
reason Apple packs the IIGS disks as Mac disk images is because
they assume that you'd want a duck (metaphor for a second
computer loaded with software) to incubate the chicken egg to
hatch the chicken.  ;-)

Still, I felt that Apple did a disservice to Apple II users by taking
down the .shk versions of the disks.  Some of us use only Win PCs
and we DO have ShrinkIt on the IIGS.  We should be able to
extract the files to our IIGS, but Apple won't let us.

>>Until recently, there was not even any way to run a disk image into a 
>>real IIGS disk on the IIGS!
>
>What is that way?

There's a clone of DiskCopy called "Clone" on the IIGS.
Clone can extract DiskCopy images.

>>Disk images are mainly meant for non-hard drive aware games
>>and other stuff and thus are used by emulators.  Real IIGS
>>users don't like disk images much.
>
>Real IIGS users probobly have hard drives for one thing, huh? Heheh,
>well... my project has to go ahead with a bargain-basement budget. I'm
>sure over time, perhaps over many years I will encounter upgrade parts
>to drop into it. This is a little side project as I maintain a PowerPC
>for productivity.

I can understand that.  My other computer is a non-Intel Win 95
unit with 12GB or storage.  ;-)

But IIGS users with the actual IIGS hardware, well, in that case
.shk archives are simply more convenient.  You can transfer
.shk archives from your Win 95 PC to your IIGS and extract
them.  But DiskCopy images require a Mac.  As Greg wrote,
Clone was able to extract DiskCopy images for a while, but Apple
updated DiskCopy and newer images no longer work.  And
since I don't have a Mac, you can see why I don't like those
disk images!

>>Most IIGS programs come in .shk archives, sometimes with
>>installer programs that copy the right files into the right directories,
>>just like PC archives that explode the right files into the different
>>Windows directories.
>
>Would this indeed be assuming one has a hard drive to copy the files
>into? Or can you use another floppy? The ShrinkIt archives can't be
>executable when they are compressed, right? You would have to
>uncompress them first and then execute them?

This applies to floppy disks too.  With .shk archives, you can
compress all the files on an 800k floppy into a much smaller
size.  Now if you did not have a Mac, you would need to transfer
downloads to your IIGS from your Windows PC.  But a disk
image of an 800k floppy won't fit on an 800k disk (the imaging
process adds a few kilobytes).  An .shk compressed archive of
an 800k floppy's contents WILL fit on an 800k disk.  Thus,
for Windows to IIGS transfers for IIGS users with only 3.5"
floppies, .shk files are the only way to go.

>>>4] Is an 800k 3.5" floppy disk described as a piece of hardware as a
>>>"DSDD" disk?
>>>Yup.  They format to 800k on the IIGS and the Mac, 880k on the
>>Amiga, and 720k on Win/DOS PCs.
>
>That's about the most amazing thing I have learned yet, imagine my
>surprise!!!
>
>Oh hey, this is my first major posting to a newsgroup and today I
>received my FIRST spam e-mail message... I think they may have trawled
>my e-mail address out of my postings here... What sort of precautions
>does anybody take? Just curious...

You can put NOSPAM in your email address field, but this will also
block reply by email from newsgroup readers who just hit to reply
button.  They have to manually delete NOSPAM every time.  I've
opted not to do this, but if the spam is really bad, it is worth a try.

>Hey by the way... thanks to everyone who takes and has taken the time
>to follow this thread and answer my questions and stuff... Sure have
>learned a lot. Special thanks go out to Supertimer and Rubywand.

You are welcome.  Hope your IIGS gets up and running soon.
Good luck!