Re: CDR's & MP3 for GS???

[gser@earth.execpc.com (Dan Krass)]

I don't see the issue here of having to copy things over to the
Macintosh or PC and keep the directory structure. All you have
to do is create a hard disk drive with only the data for your
game on it, organize in partitions/directories, toss it on the
SCSI chain of your PC or Macintosh and do a SCSI copy to CD.

Sorry, I'm joining the thread a bit late, so maybe this
has already been discussed.

--Dan Krass

In article <19981216052847.27814.00000001@ng35.aol.com>, Supertimer wrote:
>spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) wrote:
>
>>In article supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) writes...
>>
>>>spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Even if you could support writing, don't you think a 650 MB
>>>>permanent storage device is a bit overkill for the IIgs? With a
>>>>CD-R your expected to continually create discs packed with 650
>>>>megabytes of data. PC and Mac users have no trouble filling this
>>>>space because size of audio/video data (QT, AVI, MP3), not too
>>>>mention the sheer size of software archives that are often many
>>>>hundred megabytes large. In comparison, I can practically fit
>>>>the *entire* Caltech Apple II FTP archive onto a single CD-ROM.
>>>
>>>Haven't you seen all the interesting HyperCard and
>>>HyperStudio stacks that have been produced?  Haven't
>>>you seen the rather large animations and sounds that
>>>can be produced.  Haven't you ever wondered why there
>>>are not more CD-ROM titles THAT ACTUALLY TAKES
>>>ADVANTAGE OF THE IIGS' CAPABILITIES?
>>
>>    I think the reason for the lack of CD-ROM titles for the IIgs
>>has to do with 1) Very few IIgs owners have a CD-ROM drive hooked
>>up to their systems and 2) The Apple IIgs software market died
>>long before compact discs and drives became affordable.
>
>Unless you unleash the USER CREATED software forum.
>I'm taking about the bastion of people who create
>HyperCard or HyperSudio based software.  This is the
>target audience I'm talking about.  These people create
>software for the sole purpose of enjoying it and sharing
>it with others.  But they are hampered by storage
>considerations.  It would be silly to try to upload a 300MB
>archive to ground and Zip disks costs too much as a
>distributing medium for non-profit software distribution.
>
>Hey, if I had a CD-R on my SCSI chain, I would give
>a shot at writing a multimedia game as described above
>because I can distribute my software on CD-R for
>$5 each.  It would be freeware for the cost of the disc
>and shipping.
>
>>    Now we're stuck in a kind of catch-22, because despite CD-ROM
>>drives now being affordable, users have little incentive to buy
>>them because of the lack of CD titles. On the flip side, authors
>>who still publish software (which is to a very, very, small market)
>>aren't interested in producing programs that *require* CD's as it
>>means reducing your market to a tiny handful of users. As it stands
>>now, if you sell IIgs software you don't want _anything_ that could
>>potentially cut into your profits, because then your just breaking
>>even or even losing money.
>
>But USER/authors ARE interested in just breaking even.
>I'd LOVE to write a multimedia Hyper/Studio/Card based
>adventure game for no profit.  A CD-R lets me do this.
>Zip is too expensive and distribution of a large/complex
>game over the internet is impossible.
>
>>    We've seen a couple of data archive-only CD's because it costs
>>little or nothing to produce (except mostly the time involved in
>>organizing and sorting data). Today you can even purchase your
>>own blank CD's, labels and a burner, and do your own in-house
>>publishing. Blank discs are only about $1/ea. I don't think
>>anyone is pressing Apple II CD's anymore.
>
>THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!  USER PRESSED
>CD-ROMs.  Unleash the potential of the target audience
>of a free program like HyperCard.  The potential of
>HyperCard and HyperStudio are currently hampered
>by disk space considerations.  CD-Rs release the
>constraints.  Zip disks do too, but again they are much
>too expensive for distribution purposes.  Meanwhile,
>CD-Rs are the cost of a cassette tape and you know
>there are a lot of non-profit bands distributing music
>this way.
>
>>>Take HyperCard and HyperStudio stacks...the biggest
>>>ones I've seen are 3MB archives (probably unpacks
>>>to 5MB).  These things just START to tap into the potential
>>>of the IIGS.  If I had a CD-ROM burner that can easily
>>>directly record on the IIGS, I can learn one or both
>>>of these authoring systems and make a large adventure
>>>game, complete with graphics, video sequences, and
>>>tons of digitized sounds and still graphics.  Imagine
>>>if each stack were a segment of an adventure game
>>>and takes 1MB of storage.  You can have 650 scenes
>>>in the game!  All the stacks can link to each other to
>>>provide a coherent gaming environment.  And there
>>>would be no need for scripters to skimp on disk space.
>>
>>    I have to admit it would be _very_ neat to take advantage
>>of all the storage space on a CD for a IIgs game, or a stack.
>>You could have plently of long digitized music scores and
>>video captures (DreamVision, Mini-Movies and even Paintworks
>>animations are proof you can do moving video) and still have
>>lots of room left over for the main program.
>
>Yup.  I've got several ideas and I might even carry
>them out using my Zip drive, but I'm pretty certain
>that as soon as I go over 10MB (the practical limit
>of internet distributable Apple II software) the target
>audience of the HyperStudio or HyperCard stack
>would be limited to my own IIGS.  With CD-Rs, that's
>different.  Suddenly, for $5 admission, ANYONE
>with a CD-ROM drive on a IIGS can see my game.
>So what if there are only a handful of such users.
>Fifty or even 20 is better than one and incentive
>for me to get cracking.  I'm sure it is the same for
>others.
>
>>    Though this is just an arguement for having a CD-ROM drive,
>>not a burner. If someone published a game that required a CD
>>drive, they could create all the data and then burn it onto a
>>master CD using their PC or Mac (then make copies from there).
>>Digisoft didn't burn their Golden Orchard CD (which had both
>>ProDOS and HFS partitions) using the IIgs for example.
>
>You don't understand.  It is not that easy.  First,
>you MUST use HFS and ProDOS.  These files must
>be usable and ISO9660 is only good for archives from
>the IIGS point of view.  So that mandates a Mac or
>Windows PC with a Mac emulator.  But that's not
>all.  The Golden Orchard is only a conglomeration
>of files.  For a large multimedia game, you'd need
>the logical pathname organization to remain intact.
>Can you imagine trying to copy hundreds of files
>over to a Mac and trying to keep the pathname
>relationships exactly the same?  It would be more
>trouble than a freeware game would be worth.  Not
>so if the CD-R were ON THE IIGS!
>
>>    In any case, this is all fantasy since it doesn't seem
>>likely the GS would be fast enough to support a CD-R burner.
>
>This has not been proven.  Now before you start
>attacking me saying "he thinks I'm GS bashing again"
>or something crazy like that, I'm not saying that
>I'm 100% sure it can be done.  But they said the
>same thing about FAX on the IIGS, MultiFinder for
>the IIGS, UNIX style shells for the IIGS, multitasking
>for the IIGS, and TCP/IP for the IIGS.  They've been
>proven wrong for all of these and today these tasks
>can be done on the IIGS.  You will forgive me if I
>take your view with a grain of salt?  Again, I'm not
>saying I am sure it can be done.  Only that until
>it is proven that it can't be done, it is still within
>the realm of possibility and maybe even probability.
>
>>Also, I don't see any current interest in writing CD-ROM
>>games and programs, though that isn't to say someone can't.
>>CD-ROM software falls into the same catagory as the Second
>>Sight--lots of potential is *there*, but no one is jumping
>>at it and it remains relatively untapped.
>
>I'd give it a shot if I had a CD-R drive on the IIGS.  I'm
>sure many HyperStudio and HyperCard users would
>too.  The IIGS user has always been locked into the
>mindset that "if I make my software too big, I will
>never be able to distribute it as freeware or shareware."
>Hard drives and even Zip drives don't change this.
>Who wants to write cool multimedia adventure games
>that no one but themselves and their friends/families will
>see?  CD-R is the first medium that's cheap enough to
>change this.  CD-Rs are almost as cheap as floppy
>disks.