Re: Apple II info please...

[schefflr@news.msus.edu (Bill Scheffler)]

Mitchell Spector (spec@vax2.concordia.ca) wrote:

:     After the way Apple Computer treated users of the Apple II--not
: to mention the blatant negelect of the Apple IIgs where *mountains*
: of potential were literally thrown away--is it any surprise?

	True.  But I still stand by my opinion that Macs are good machines
(by no means the right machine for everyone, but good machines
nonetheless).  People need a choice and should NOT have to used Wintel PCs
if they don't like them.

:     I completely agree with all of Nathan's points above. While maybe
: not all, the majority of Mac users operate their computers as simple
: appliances and known nothing about computers. In theory that is a good

	I bet to differ.  ALOT (and I mean ALOT) of PC users are the same
way.  The major of computer users are just that users, be they Mac, PC,
Apple II, whatever...  They just use their computer like an appliance and
could care less about it's innards.  That's why people pay people like us
(who like messing around inside) good $$$ to come over and help them
every now and then. :)

: thing, since you want the average person capable of sitting down and
: using a computer without any previous training or experience. However,
: when something unexpected goes wrong, they freeze and become utterely
: helpless (just go ask anyone who's worked in tech support about Mac
: callers and you'll hear all sorts of interesting stories). The most

	That's more in the past.  Apple has gotten it's act together the
past year or so.  The System Software is quite stable with rudementary
memory protection (lockups being almost a thing of the past).  I wouldn't
have bought a Mac otherwise, I'm not some blind sheep being lead by the
shepherd.  I know what I like, and I choose a Mac.  Another factor being
my dislike of Windows.  Now do you want to talk about lockups... (I use a
PC at work at it's a nightmare).  Maybe my employer should shell out
more $$$ for Win98 -- it fixes problems that shouldn't be there in the
first place. :)  The lesson here, nobody's perfect (Apple, Microsoft,
etc).

: unfortunate part is, whether inexperienced or experienced, the vast
: majority of Mac users are religious about their machines and cannot
: deal with criticisms. The largest ISP in this part of Canada actually
: had to issue a _written_ memo warning all technical support staff to
: *never* criticize Mac users' machines, or Apple Computer, because of
: negative reactions they'd been having. No such memo was issued about
: PC's, Amiga's or other machines.

	I think you'll find most minority groups are pretty defensive.
Although Apple Computer contributed to this mentality.  I agree it's
unfortunate.  But people have to stop generalizing here.  I know alot of
intelligent people who use Macs and PCs.  I also know alot of idiots who
use Macs and PCs (and the PC guys are just as annoying when defending
their platform).  It all depends on the person behind the keyboard...not
the machine.

:     Apple builds a whole psychology around its machines. I have to
: admit, during the first several years I owned my Apple IIgs, I was
: quite religious about my machine and Apple Computer. Quite frankly
: I'd argue bitterly when someone criticized the IIgs, and I refused
: to believe anything could be better than it (the Amiga was clear
: as day better than the GS on several fronts, but I would close my
: eyes and convince myself otherwise). Now that I've stopped believing,
: I feel like I've escaped from some cult, been deprogrammed and
: looking in from the outside. :)

	Maybe not the best machine, but it was sure was a good one. :)

	You have to look at it from a different perspective.  Each Mac is
unique in the way that a group of engineers spent time working on
designing it's motherboard and ROM.  Much like the GS was.  They are
unique machines.  Whereas alot of PCs are assembled from generic parts.
Why it's silly to worship a machine, I can understand why some act that
way (but god is it annoying).

:     If you want to know the truth, I find the Intel PC clone a lot more
: similar to the Apple II than today's PowerMac's. The machine has a very
: opened architecture that practically begs the user to open the lid and
: poke inside. You have 7 internal slots that can be filled with an almost
: unlimited variety of interface cards, from countless 3rd party companies.
: There are people who take soldering pens to the motherboards and do home-
: brewed modifications (I was just reading up on how to modify my older ASUS
: Pentium board to accept CPU's that require higher voltage the other day).
: People like to break rules when writing software and do things not thought
: possible on the machine. You can exit from the graphical GUI and drop into
: a CLI, even with a character generator (Windows and DOS remind me a lot of
: GS/OS and ProDOS, or even GS/OS and GNO). There are countless games written
: for it too, just like during the golden era of the Apple II.

	I won't deny that (the original poster asked about similarities
between Apple II/Mac and that's all I gave).  As a matter of fact I'm
assembling a 486 for a guy.  I'll admit it's fun, but from day to day use,
I need a reliable machine and that for me is a Mac.  I guess I just enjoy
the Apple Desktop (be it on the GS or Mac) more than the Windows mess.
Personal preference.

:     I assembled my PC myself, from a collection of hand picked parts.
: I had lots of fun doing it too, and still do whenever I have to open
: the machine and get my hands on the hardware. This is very much like
: it was (and still is) when I play with my IIgs and other Apple II's.

	I still feel Apple II's handled different types of hardware more
gracefully.  I can't count the times my PC using friend bought a new
peripheral and wrestled with it for weeks.  Until ISA is dumped off
motherboards, I have a feeling I'll still be laughing from time to time.
	But you have a point, for those who have the time (a couple years
ago I would have), building your own PC can be lots of fun.  I intend to
do so.  I like playing around with different platforms.

:     With a few of obvious exceptions surrounding the IIgs, the Mac and
: the Apple II have _nothing_ in common. One is a appliance like a TV,
: VCR, microwave -- you turn it on, use it, and not worry about what
: it is doing or what's going on inside. The other is just the opposite.

	I disagree with that one.  The Mac OS is quite flexible.  Much
like the GS with inits and finder extras.  You can customize your system
to fit your style.  I love opening the case and looking around (BEAUTIFUL
design).  No screws to get in the way.  Everything folds out and is EASY
to get at.  The countless PC manufacturers could learn a lesson from this
design.  The days of closed Macs died years ago.  You can TV Tuners (I
did, took like 3 minutes to install and close up the case).  Extra hard
drives, video cards, Ultra SCSI, and soon USB... :)
	Also, it looks like with the iMac and beyond, Apple is dumping the
Mac ROM.  I wonder if this will bring about (il)legal clones in the
future.  They'll essentially be PC's with PowerPC CPU's instead of Intel
derivative ones.  Things are certainly changing, maybe for the better...

: Also, one is entertaining and fun, while the other is rather dull and
: boring, though that is just my personal opinion working with both for
: many years. ;)

	I agree.  Personal opinion.

:     The IIgs was never "ready to go" as shipped from Apple, unless you
: planned to use it as a glorified Apple IIe compatible. In order to be
: a useful machine, you _have_ to add a hardrive, additional memory and
: even an accelerator card.

	True.  Although I did manage many years without an accelerator.
Back then, there weren't many machines to be jealous of, so I guess I
never noticed how slow it was. :)  Hard drives and additional RAM are a
must.  I was just saying that unlike the //e, the GS had SOME useful ports
on back so you didn't have to empty your checkbook buying a serial card
(or two -- one for a modem), a disk controller, etc.  

:     Despite all my complaints about the Mac, I still wouldn't mind
: adding an older one to my collection. There certainly are a couple
: of interesting and appealing aspects about the machine (at least
: from a historical stand point), though I wouldn't want one as my
: only computer. I know there are many reading this newsgroup who

	I personally feel NO ONE should use one computer.  Variety is the
spice of life, no? :)  I hope to add a cheap pentium to my collection
(then an AppleTalk card so it can join the countless others on my
network). :)  As a matter of fact, had I never used an Apple II, I
probably would be a "idiot Mac user" that believed the myths about Wintel
PCs.  At the sametime, however, I appreciate the Mac for the advantages it
presents.  

: choose the Mac as their computer, and I respect that and think no
: lesser of them. I just have different tastes than they do (just as
: they have different tastes and feelings about what I use). At least
: we all share a fondness for the Apple II, whatever we may use today.

	Amen. :)

--
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Bill Scheffler                            | "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with
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