Re: PLEASE STOP THE MAC AND MICROSOFT MESSAGES

[shack@onyx.southwind.net (Randy Shackelford)]

Mitchell Spector (spec@vax2.concordia.ca) wrote:

: >Discussing current company happenings is at least as topical and useful as

:     How so? Current company happenings are about a computer system
: that is completely foreign to the Apple II. Granted the Macintosh
: shares same traits in common: It is produced by the same company
: (the rainbow Apple logo on the front of Apple II's certainly makes
: that apparent) and in the case of the Apple IIgs, they share many
: similar hardware components (i.e. ADB bus, Z8530 SCC for serial
: and AppleTalk, floppy drives) and similar types of software
: (i.e. a Finder application, Toolbox in firmware for a Mac-like
: OS and software, etc).

One doesn't need to have the absolute latest product from a company
to be interested in what the company's up to. I stand by my claim that
news about Apple Inc is topical here. This is by definition a group
about Apple products so discussing the company in any way fits here.

:     Alright, perhaps at least the IIGS is not so foreign, but the
: fact remains they are completely *incompatible* computer systems.
: Can I run Macintosh software on a IIgs? No. Can the Macintosh run
: Apple IIgs software? No. (Nevermind software emulators, for very
: obvious reasons). Can I plug Macintosh slot cards into the IIGS,
: or plug IIGS slot cards into the Macintosh? No. (Nevermind things
: like floppy and SCSI drives, or modems and keyboards, that too
: for obvious reasons). If you argue "Yes" to any of these because
: of software emulators or generic computer peripherals, you open
: the door to just about every other computer system out there!

: >the rounds of woe-is-us-Apple-rooked-us-II-owners rigmarole that
: >start up every so often.

Following up would work better if those lines hadn't been split up. My
point is, people don't bat an eye at posts which say how evil Steve Jobs
or how the company rooks its customers etc. But if anyone says anything
good, certain people flip out. Like I mentioned elsewhere, that endless
thread about Jobs didn't raise any such complaints.

:     Those discussions have very little productive value, I'll
: admit that, but at least they're on topic. Like it or not, it
: is the history of the Apple II (or at very least, II users'
: perspectives on how things unfolded at Apple over the years
: concerning the *Apple II*. Regardless of whether people agree
: or not on that history, it _is_ discussing the Apple II). As
: to how useful dredging up the past is over and over and over
: again, that is another story. :)

I get sick of seeing that crap over and over, but nonetheless I'll go along
with its being germane here. With that, I will say that it's hypocritical
to consider bad talking Apple Inc on topic and saying anything positive about
them off topic.

: >And talking about PCs isn't the same as talking about any
: >Apple product you care to name here since Apple doesn't make PCs.

:     Yes, but the PC and Macintosh are as equally incompatible
: and unrelated to the Apple II. Simply because the Apple makes
: the Macintosh, does not mean it is part of the Apple II family
: line. How about this... What if tomorrow Apple produced Intel
: PC clones with the Apple name and logo on the case. Would it
: then be out of place to discuss Apple made PC's on csa2? It
: sure would be, because despite being manufactured by Apple,
: it would be a PC clone and _not_ an Apple II.

Discussing specific non Apple II products from Apple in a non Apple II
context is indeed out of the scope of this group. But talking about the
company is not. You can't about any company which makes PCs the same as
you can Apple in a group about Apple products. That's my point.

:     This group is for discussing a particular line of computer,
: not the company that was responsible for it (you can discuss the
: company in direct relation to the computer, but just talking
: about the company in general and what it does today is not
: keeping on topic). Pretend this group were "rec.bose.speakers",
: where we all discuss stereo speakers made by Bose Corporation.
: Now, let's say one day Bose starting making frozen microwave
: dinners. Would it make sense if suddenly in the middle of
: discussing sound equipment, people started jumping in the group
: and began talking about food? (And they would rationalize
: this being on topic, because Bose the company was the common
: factor in both). Okay, this is an extreme example since both
: the Apple II and Macintosh are computers, but that is about
: all they really have in common for what matters most.

But if people who know about Bose brand frozen dinners mention Bose Inc
in the Bose speaker group, there's no problem right?

: >Suppose someone were to mention that Apple has had consecutive quarters
: >in the black and its stock value is up 230%. Is that only of interest to
: >Mac users?

:     Absolutely, it _is_ only of interest to Mac users. I would be
: quite interested to hear how Apple Computer has any bearing on
: those of us who still use and own Apple II's (not every Apple II
: owner is automatically also a Mac owner/user--I'm certainly not).

I still think there are Apple II users who don't use other Apple products
who might like to hear about what the company's up to. I don't get how
people buy a product from someone and totally lose interest in who made
it afterwards.

:     If Apple's market share climbed from a dismal 3% up to a strong
: 45%, what does that do for the Apple II? Answer: Nothing. Switching
: to the flip-side, say Apple Computer goes bankrupt or is bought out
: in the near future. What affect does this have on Apple II users?
: Answer: Again nothing, since they no longer manufacture that line
: of computer, no longer produce software for it and certainly no
: longer support it. What exactly would we *as Apple II users* lose
: here? In the worst case scenario, maybe online resources like the
: Apple Tech Info Library, Apple II tech notes and System Software?
: (which incidentally, is all backed up outside of Apple's site and
: available through other sources).

Market share is directly related to a specific product. Discussing
a company is not the same as talking about its products.

:     I know your probably going to say if Apple were to disappear
: Microsoft will dominate and make computing miserable, there will
: be no new ideas in the industry, blah, blah, blah, etc. However,
: that is something that affects Macintosh and PC users, Apple II
: users live in a pretty isolated world outside of that. Do really
: diehard Apple II users really care about Microsoft? Do they care
: about Apple, Intel, Motorola and all that?

Everyone already knows where they are on that issue.

: >Funny your mentioning five years. My most recent Apple products (Q840av
: >and Pbook 165) are five years old now. But I read comp.sys.mac groups
: >just like anyone with a brand spanking new Apple box.

:     That's neat and I guess something you can be proud of (I'm not a
: fan of replacing my computer ever couple of months to stay "current"
: either) but your Quadra and Powerbook are off-topic for this group.

Aside from talking about how the new age floppy controller can cause new
boxes to reject 800Ks at times, whether they have old Sony style drives
or the new kind, is topical. Aside from that, they rarely are. The point
I was making is that all of my Apple products are old and support is
rapidly drying up. (E.g. Quicktime 3.0 doesn't run worth a hoot on my
840av even though Apple claims an '020 running OS 7.1 can run it. That's 
a laugh.) But having ancient products doesn't mean I don't want to know
what they're up to.

: I can understand wanting to bring them up though--as a Pentium user
: there's lots of cool stuff I do with the machine that I'd like to
: share with the people on comp.sys.apple2, but I'd imagine very few
: want to hear about MPEG-3 sound compression, Photoshop, Windows 95,
: Voodoo 3Dfx graphic cards, or the latest software emulator. :) Some
: probably would want to, but there are dozens of groups for that (of
: course it would be a different group of people than those I've come
: to know on comp.sys.apple2).

But there's no way to make that fit the scope of this group. I contend
that saying Apple has had two profitable quarters and that its stock
is at 30 points is in the scope of this group, which is devoted to 
discussing a particular Apple product.

:     I sometimes wish there were a "comp.sys.users.apple2.ibmpc"
: (or in your case, "comp.sys.users.apple2.mac", though I guess it
: can be easier to try to blend Mac's and Apple II's rather than
: with PC's, because of the company they share in common).

I suppose a group like comp.sys.apple.current-events is in order. RFD
anyone?

: >You're one of the people here who remains civilized when presenting an
: >opposing point of view, which makes it much more pleasant to have a discus-
: >sion.

:     Thanks for the kind words. I get quickly turned off and eventually
: ignore people who have to resort to name-calling and insults when they
: disagree with what the other person thinks (it is one thing for someone
: to be stubborn or close minded on their point of view, it is entirely
: another thing to resort to verbal abuse and attacks). You just lose all
: your creditability in that case, which means the discussion ends and
: fighting replaces it. Anyhow, I don't see why discussions taking place
: on a video screen should be treated any differently than if you were
: standing in front of the person live.

Well you tend to respond in kind to the people you're talking to I suppose.

: >I still think Apple's present as well as its past are topical in groups
: >which are devoted to Apple products.

:     But the whole point is this group isn't simply devoted to all
: Apple products in general. It is devoted to a one *single* Apple
: product -- the Apple II computer. To be what you describe above,
: it would have to be "comp.sys.apple.computers".

There is no group that isn't devoted to specific products. Company news is
as relevant to all of them as it is to any of them.

: >I might mention that I've never seen anyone in any comp.sys.mac group go
: >off when Apple II questions show up there. The bottom line is no one has
: >to read stuff they don't want to.

:     How often do Apple II messages stray into comp.sys.mac.*?
: I would imagine someone who manages to post to groups that have
: the word "mac" in there, seeking Apple II advise, to be pretty
: careless (or just too lazy to see if an "apple2" group exists;
: and makes a rash assumption that none exists and the Macintosh
: group, as an Apple related product, is close enough).

Some gets crossposted, some posted because people don't know about apple2
groups. But no one gives a Nathan style answer to any of 'em.

:     One important difference is there are *dozens* of Macintosh
: discussion groups yet only *one* Apple II discussion group (I'm
: ignoring csa2.users/comm/gno/programmers/marketplace). Also keep
: in mind the Macintosh is currently supported and produced, while
: the Apple II is not. And finally add the fact the Apple II was
: abandoned because Apple choose the Macintosh over it, and it
: doesn't take much to see why people on this group get grumpy
: when Mac questions stray into here.

I have mentioned what I consider an effective, flameless, and useless
newsgroup traffic avoiding way to handle that. Here it is: if people
would send an email to the offender telling them to post to an appropriate
group instead of following up to bellyache about it, it would fix it. I
think if a poster got 40 or 50 emails telling them where their post belongs,
it would have more effect than a handful of whiney followups which the
poster may or may not see. Sound good?

: >Kill files and the like are there to prevent it. I've been using the
: >kill thread feature a lot lately myself.

:     I don't like to use the 'kill' feature in my newsreader
: since bad threads often get back onto topic (even interesting
: topics) without people changing the thread name. I've even
: seen highly technical discussions under the most unlikely
: message threads.

Well I make judicious use of my N key when I read news. If it isn't something
I want to read, I can usually tell in a screenful or two. Some threads are
totally full of stuff I don't want to read, so I use K to take care of them.

:     Anyhow, considering how much junk there has been in this
: newsgroup the past couple of years, I'm more tempted to just
: unsubscribe to this group altogether (ironically, after all
: this talk about whether Mac posts belong on csa2, it is not
: Mac discussion that I consider the "junk", it is the fighting
: and insults getting hurled back and forth. Mac stuff is just
: noise within that junk).

I go along with the idea that Mac related posts outside of an Apple II
context don't belong here. But like I keep saying, it's within the scope
of the group to talk about the company. People who can do nothing but bash
Apple sure appear to think so.
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