Re: dsk and do files

[supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer)]

!smentzer@ecom.net (Steve Mentzer) wrote:

>Supertimer wrote:
>
>>There may be a difference between a file archive and a disk image
>>archive, but .shk designates BOTH.  That's what Andy Nicholas
>>intended and that's what Shrinkit does by default.  Just because
>>someone down the line thought up the .sdk designation and Nathan
>>Mates followed suite with a GUPP that changed Shrinkits default
>>behavior does not make it correct.  The .shk format is an archive
>>that may contain either a file or a disk image with a NuFx header
>>and most often compressed with LZW or LZW/2.
>>
>
>Ok, smartypants....

Hmmm...insults...so much for being morally above Nathan Mates.

>I can go to my GS right now and rename (or retype) a .system file to be a 
>system16 file, and wala! it doesn't change what the true underlying data 
>represents. the ".SHK" extension doesn't mean a damn thing. It is a file 
>extension. File extensions do not change the data underneath.

When someone says "it makes no sense to support .shk" I was
answering BOTH disk image and file storage.  Read what I wrote
-- a Shrinkit archive is more than just ".shk" and a file type...it
is a file designated with a NuFx header and unpackable by Andy
Nicholas' Shrinkit.  If you want to talk about "it makes no sense
to support .shk" you first have to establish the ground rules that
".shk" covers both file AND disk archives.  You have made an
argument against FILE .shk archives with has SOME merit, but
DISK .shk archives can clearly be supported.

>>>It is very easy to convert a DISK IMAGE to the 2MG or DSK or PO format. It
is 
>>>incredibly difficult (and stupid) to convert a SHK ***FILE ARCHIVE*** to a 
>>>readable and usable disk image.
>>
>>WHY?  Sure, a disk image support is needed for initially getting
>>ProDOS or GS/OS onto an emulator, but once a hard disk image
>>is created it makes PERFECT SENSE to support .shk file format.
>>An integrated Shrinkit type program that can take an .shk file
>>archive on a Mac or Wintel hard drive and unshrink the files ONTO
>>the DISK IMAGE would make emulators MUCH MORE USEFUL.
>>You could then run ANY software from legitamate sources like
>>the GROUND FTP SERVER or YOUR OWN GS with ease.  It
>>makes PERFECT SENSE.  If GS+ Magazine lasted a few more
>>years, there would probably be at least a Mac version of such a
>>program.  It makes PERFECT SENSE.  To argue against it...no
>>reason except an irrational preference for .dsk.
>
>Ok, lets look at this from a programmers perspective.
>
>	1 - Load the SHK archive.
>	2 - determine whether or not is a DSK or SHK format.
>	3 - if DSK, unpack/unarchive the disk image to our own 
>	    propriety internal image type.

A separate "Shrinkit" utility makes more sense...

>	4 - If SHK, read a list of files and types. Create an
>	    empty "image" in ram, and start placing files

This is wrong...I am saying, once a hard drive image is created, then
it makes sense to be able to access file .shk archives...this way,
you can unpack legitimate file archives from the ground ftp server, etc.

>            in the proper places. Make sure to follow all the PRODOS
>	    formatting, directory and RWTS specs. Basically, 
>            rewrite the ProDos FS spec for the platform that the emulator
>	    works with.

No; again, you would create a hard drive image first.  XGS, for example,
already has such a utility as several other emulators.  At least one
emulator's hard drive image file can expand as you fill it up.  There is
also a program called aftp...it works like ftp to "put" files from the PC
hard drive onto the hard drive image and "get" files out of the hard drive
image onto the real PC hard drive.  It makes PERFECT sense to build
on the aftp concept and include DECOMPRESSING a .shk file archive
FROM the PC HARD DRIVE and saving the files ONTO the HARD
DRIVE IMAGE.

>	5 - Ok, now we have a disk image. (and this is ALL before boot-up).

You are twisting my words...I am saying keep support for disk images
but ADD support for .shk file archives.  SO...you would create a HARD
DRIVE IMAGE using existing utilities FIRST, use DISK IMAGES of
System Software to install ProDOS or GS/OS.  THEN with a HARD
DRIVE IMAGE and the aftp-like Shrinkit utility, you can access any
.shk file archive and unshrink the program onto the HARD DRIVE
IMAGE.

GS+ Magazine wrote Balloon, a GSHK file archive decompressor.
Someone else wrote aftp.  If GS+ Magazine lasted longer, there is
little doubt that a decompressor for .shk file archives that CAN PUT
THE DECOMPRESSED FILES ON A HARD DRIVE IMAGE at least
for Mac emulators would have resulted.

>	6 - Boot
>	7 - Ooops, the file archive didn't have the valid prodos system
>	    files. Gee, lets go write some more code to auto insert the 
>	    prodos 8 boot files. Oops, this is a GS/OS application. Hmmm.
>	    If we saw a resource fork in the archive, maybe we should create
>	    the GS/OS bootstrap files....

See above.  Also, at least one emulator has hard drive images that
expand as you fill it up (to the emulated A2, the partition is 32MB
large.

>	8 - Damn! Now the image size is 1.7MB. It is no longer a simple
>	    3.5" disk image. So much for standards.

See above.  Also, at least one emulator has hard drive images that
expand as you fill it up (to the emulated A2, the partition is 32MB
large.

>	9 - Ok, we are booting... phew.
>	10 - Everything looking good. Running our little app in the original
>	     SHK archive. Trying to save file. SHIT! We can't save. Out of 
>	     disk space on the original image. We only resized the image to
>	     1.7MB (which is just big enough to contain the entire GS/OS app
>	     and the associated boot files). Hmmm.. useless app.

See above.  Also, at least one emulator has hard drive images that
expand as you fill it up (to the emulated A2, the partition is 32MB
large.

>	11 - This sucks,lets shut down. Ok, let's rearchive all the files
>	     on the disk image. Hmmm.. archive size grew from 1.1 to 1.7MB
>	     just by booting the image. So much for "lean and mean".
>	12 - Send hate mail to programmer for making it so complicated
>	     to deal with SHK archives. Disk images are much cleaner.

Twisting my words...I am saying keep disk image support but add file
archive support.

>And this only deals with 10% of the contingency issues that I can dream up. I 
>didn't even get into GS/OS-Prodos8/16 licensing issues, forked file problems, 
>toolset dependencies etc etc etc.

Once you get a hard drive image with GS/OS installed, wouldn't it
help getting the many many available file archive .shk if you had a
combination Shrinkit-aftp program?  Unshrink a Shrinkit file archive
resident on your Mac/Wintel hard drive and save the resulting files
(aftp style) onto the hard drive image.  This might look possible
using a combination of Nulib and aftp for the Wintel, but since the
extended files are destroyed, it does not work for GS programs.
A combination Nulib (w/extended file support) and aftp program can
deal with this since the file system on the hard drive image would
support extended files...

>Now, I can agree with you that if we could deal with SHK archives in a 
>reasonable manner, it would make sense to support them. But the issues
involved 
>are pretty complex, and emulator code bloat is not the solution.

See above.  Separate utility.

>A simple utility that would extract SHK files to an 800k disk IMAGE would be 
>better.

Better onto a hard drive image, like aftp does, but with decompression
and .shk format support...

>But having it intergrated into an emulator is stupid. This utility 
>should simple handle forks and files. No bootstrap support should be provided.

>If the disk is non-bootable, it is non-bootable. Simple and stupid. That is
the 
>key.

Separate utility, shipped with the emulator (like many emulator utils
do that create hard drive images)...

>So, who is willing to create a utility to extract SHK files to a valid disk 
>image? Or how bout someone send me the libraries for Andy's shrinkit routines,

>along with a detailed description of the Prodos8 FS spec.
>
>smentzer@ecom.net

Two comments -- GS+ Magazine did include sources where they
got the routines for their Shrinkit decompressor, Balloon.  I'll try
to get the names of the sources to you.  Second, there is already
an emulator for Linux that emulates the ProDOS8 file system...
it runs WITHOUT the need for disk images...the emulator runs
with FILES on Linux and in emulation mode, the files appear as
PRODOS files to the emulator...

Finally, you missed my whole point...WHY was the .shk DISK
IMAGE format (I refuse to call it ".sdk") not supported and made
standard instead of .dsk?  The answer is Randy Spurlock, who
started the emulator craze with his II+ emulator, Apple2em, had
only a II+ and an old copy of Copy II+ that mad .dsk images.
This image format continues to be used because of inertia (since
Spurlock's emulator used it, other emulators used it to remain
compatible)...if Spurlock had a IIe instead and known about
Shrinkit, most likely emulators would have and would be supporting
Shrinkit DISK IMAGES...

Nathan says .dsk was chosen to spite real A2 users.  You seem
to have claimed it was for some magical reason.  I am saying
it was because of Randy Spurlock, Apple2em, and the fact that
Spurlock had only a II+, an old copy of Copy II+ in an early version,
and Apple2em being the emulator that started the whole craze...