Re: Long rambling post (was Re: New FAQ sites?)

[pubpc1@library.ucla.edu]

sheldon@atlcom.net (Sheldon Simms) wrote:
>pfg@yallara.cs.rmit.EDU.AU (Paul Francis Gilbert) wrote:
>
>> After all, Mr Mates didn't seem to feel any compunctions about banning
>> the entire execpc.com site, despite the fact that I understand there are
>> several //e users on that site that aren't even remotely connected to
>> Dr Tom (it servers the entire state [as a previous post mentioned]. Did
>> Nathan have any compunctions about cutting their access just because they
>> live in the same state as Tom? I doubt it.
>
>"They" (Bill Misek) don't live in the same state as Charles Turley and
>ISPs in the US are just companies. execpc.com may be one of the ISPs
>where Mr. Misek lives. It may be the most prominent. It is by no means the
>only ISP in the state, as you imply. Just thought a few facts might be
>helpful.
>
>To move on to a broader discussion of the topic, I have to agree that
>Nathan is largely his own worst enemy on c.s.a2. To the relative c.s.a2
>newbie, Nathan sure does seem like a big jerk and Charles Turley a fairly
>undeserving victim of verbal attack. It's a real shame.

Actually, my observations are that they can both be jerks.  It is a
shame that people group Nate and the developers together automatically.
Let me ask you this, Sheldon, why do the developers not say anything
about Nate's flaming newbies for no apparent reason?

If many of the anti-Dr. Tom people would also take a stand against
Nate's outbursts, I'd suspect that people won't be seeing one side
or the other as right or wrong.  Dr. Tom and Nate would be the _only_
ones who are wrong (and the pirates, depending on your persuasion).

Like I outlined in csa2 chronicles, I have _nothing_ but praise for
Henrik Gudat and Joe Kohn, and I'm a big fan of Brutal Deluxe and
Ninja Force.  However, because I support them, I do _not_ automatically
go on defending the abusive and vindictive Nathan Mates.


>I think Charles Turley should be free to participate in c.s.a2 discussions
>and I think Nathan should stop his tirades. It seems clear that they
>won't make Charles Turley leave and tend to make people who don't know the
>history behind all of this side with Charles Turley automatically.

I agree.


>I guess I would have to say that I would mentally categorize him as
>"currently harmless crank" if it weren't for the Brutal Deluxe episode.
>I urge all c.s.a2 readers to take the time to consider the evidence
>presented in Olivier Zardini's webpage
>(http://www.cyberstation.fr/~zardini)

Like I said, both of them can be jerks.  However, just because one does
not agree with piracy, does one automatically have to support Nate's
abuses?  Why not take a stand against both of them.


>The evidence in this document is not conclusive, due to the acknowledged
>possibility of forging headers and the like, but it is convincing to me
>because 1) Several of the items presented have no connection to the
>internet, rather people are named who have received altered and illegally
>copied software directly from Charles Turley. 2) Brutal Deluxe has no
>reason to perpetrate a fraud on the Apple II users community, they have
>spent huge amounts of time and effort to provide software to Apple II
>users for free. 3) The evidence is strong and consistent. Charles Turley's
>attempts at explanatory denial are preposterous.

I have to agree.  I do not agree with Mr. Turley's actions.  However,
that does not justify me going on a flaming spree trying to force the
everyone else to agree with me.  Piracy issues aside, do you not agree
that Nate seems to flame because he enjoys it?  He flames newbies all
the time as well as those who try to help (and I am not talking about
Charles Turley).  He treats others like idiots just because they have
not taken the time to rote memorize his 200 kilobyte FAQ documents.
Do you not agree that newbies have a right to ask questions here even
if they did not read the FAQ?  Nate does not have to answer them, others
like myself would be happy to.  Why does he have to go off insulting
everyone _regardless_ of the software issue?

The _only_ way to peace here is to oppose both Turley and Mates.  That's
the _only_ way.  Come on folks, take a stand with me.  Cross the lines
and see the light.  Ignore Turley _and_ Mates.


>Lastly - and I don't offer this as evidence, just observation - Charles
>Turley is intimately associated with trouble. Like I said, I have read
>this newsgroup a long time. Before Charles Turley appeared there were
>few, if any flames. Ever since he appeared there has been non-stop
>flames and other crap that has made this newsgroup almost useless for
>years. I don't doubt that some of this is merely due to the general
>expansion of access to usenet. When I started reading this group it was
>almost all programmers and other technical people. Probably half the
>active posters were authors of commercial Apple II software. They're all
>gone now - in large part due to the activities of people like Charles
>Turley, in my opinion.

How about Nate?  Has he not started his share of flame wars?  At least
as much as Turley.  Oppose _both_ Turley and Mates.


>I don't mean to say that they would all be still
>selling Apple II programs today if Charles Turley had stayed off usenet.
>I just try to stand in their shoes and think:
>
>"Why should I bother to waste my time writing a good program for a shrinking
>market when the internet is filling up with people who will use it to steal
>my hard work?"

A _very_ good point.  Piracy of living software such as Pointless,
Express, and LemminGS should be vigorously opposed.


>and furthermore:
>
>"Why should I bother even reading the newsgroup and helping people out when
>I am going to be reviled as a narrowminded jerk for trying to protect my
>work and the people who illegally copy and distribute it are hailed as
>heros who are saving the Apple II?"

Sheldon, I have seen people who's only crime was to ask a question be
flamed by Nate.  I myself have be treated as a jerk by _Nathan Mates_
because I have tried to help others (and, apparently, because I have
8MB in my GS and recommend it, DMA or not).  I do not go around
illegally
copying software for others, but simply disagreeing with him on issues
such as 8MB.  Yet I've been flamed by him dozens of times.  Is Nate not
guilty of turning off folks who want to help?

I agree with you that piracy of living software must be stopped, but
please
take a stand with me and oppose _both_ assholes, Turley _and_ Mates.


>It is very sad to me that these people are gone and it saddens me that
>some people on this newsgroup that I otherwise think of as intelligent,
>helpful, and welcome additions to c.s.a2 jump to the defense of Charles
>Turley and bad mouth and insult the few remaining developers of Apple II
>software. I am a computer programmer by profession and at one time I
>wanted to write some Apple II software to sort of "pay back" for all the
>great times I had as a kid playing on my Apple IIe. I changed my mind
>several years ago when I saw what thanks Joe Kohn, Brutal Deluxe and
>Richard Bennett got for their efforts.

Let me ask you this.  If you were a cop, you would want the public to
support you and take a stand against violence and crimes, correct?  But
what would happen if there was a bad cop who beats up and tortures
people?  As a cop, shouldn't you take a stand against _both_ the bad
cop and the criminals?  How can the public support the police if the
good cops will not take a stand against one of their own who abuse?

>--
>W. Sheldon Simms III   |   2000 is *still* the 20th century
>sheldon@atlcom.net     |

-Scott G.