Re: A 386, a 286, and an Old Apple 2+: Ideas Wanted

[ghod@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu]

In article <93060602@telecom.chi.il.us>, root@telecom.chi.il.us (Patrick 
Townson) writes:
> My life story, chapter whatever --- :(   
> 
> For about eight years, from sometime in 1980 through 1988, I made a
> great deal of use of an Apple 2+. Actually, it is one of the very
> limited issue 'Black Apples' -- the special run done for the Bell and
> Howell Company.  On the front where the Apple ][ metal sticker goes
> is even the indicia "Bell and Howell, made exclusively for Bell and
> Howell by Apple Computer". In all respects it is simply a standard
> two-plus, with the usual 48K of RAM expandable to 64 K, eight slots
> in the back for the disk drives, 'language card', modem, etc.

Tell it brother... I too was an Apple ][+ user util; about two years ago, when
I brought the thing up to college and it developed serious brain damage. I
still have it though.

> 
> Prior to that (1977-80) I used an Ohio Scientific C-1-P, but we will 
> skip that for now ....
> 
> For quite a few years this B&H Apple 2+ ran my BBS. I had the thing
> loaded with cards; still have them all here in fact:
[list of truly vintage Apple periperals deleted]
> 
> Anyway, it was a gem ... BBS went out of service in 1986 after about
> 20,000 calls, and in 1988 the machine started acting up.
> 
> Monitor was giving a 'split screen' reaction -- i.e. the top half
> of the screen got nothing for a display and everything was dropped by
> about the same amount; the bottom part of the screen was out of sight
> below the bottom.  I traced the problem down to a chip 74 LS 08 N
> which is the first chip in row H on the board. That chip has to do
> with the screen display; somehow it went bad, I think maybe when I 
> put a card in one day without powering down.  
Ack! I blew out my 'language card' doing that once. I pulled the disk drive
controller out not realizing the system was still switched on. Don't recognize
the problem with the monitor though. BTW, if you have an RF modulator (or a
VCR) I would connect the thing to your TV just to verify that it is indeed
the computer that's giving you the trouble and not the monitor itself.

> 
> Any how .... put the machine away and forgot about it ...
> 
> Began working almost entirely on Unix via my terminal and eecs.nwu.edu.  
> Kept saying to myself I should get a replacement 74 LS 08 N and get
> the thing running so our little one will have a great learning tool
> when he gets just a few years older ...
> 
> Now -- 1993 -- I can find *no one* with such a chip.  

!?!??!?!?!? Man, you must not be looking in the right catalogs. The 74LS08N
is a quad 2 input AND gate. The L stands for low power and the S means it
uses Schottky TTL logic. I don't quite recall what the N is there for. Anyway,
this is a very common chip. Even Radio Shaft sold them at one point! You
can get them for 50 cents or less from any number of parts houses. One in
particular that leaps to mind is DigiKey (their number is 1 800 DIGIKEY).
Now, ordering a 50 cent part may seem silly, but if you're desperate they'll
do it for you for a fee (this means they'll charge you an extra bit of money
to make it worth their while -- this may seem harsh, but it's better than
forcing you to buy twenty of them to meet a minimum order requirement).
I recommend that you scrounge a bit in your local area first. And don't be
too concerned with finding an exact replacement part: it doesn't really have
to be a 74LS08N, it can be a 74HS08 (high speed, Schottky) or 74S08, or even
just a plain 7408. I think the only important factor would be the speed, but
as the Apple ][+ was hardly a speed demon, I wouldn't be too concerned. Just
ask around for a quad 2 input AND gate: someone is *BOUND* to have one.

> 
>                      ==========================
> 
> 
> Second half of the problem:
> 
> Do I *really* want to repair the Apple and keep it around?  Not
> really, considering I now spend my time with a 286 and a 386 instead.
> But the 386 is pretty skimpy inside:
> 
>    There is room for a meg of RAM in there. Bank 0 is full,
>    all the slots marked Bank 1 are empty.  I get 640 K of RAM.
>    I would rather upgrade that to a meg or more.
Must be a fairly old 386 otherwise it would use SIMMs rather than DIP RAM.
Well, see if you can read the numbers off the existing RAM chips and ask
DigiKey if they have anything similar. Knowing them, they just might.

> 
> I hate to see the various cards that were in the Apple just go to
> waste --
> 
> The question:   Is  ** anything ** of the Apple hardware compatible
>                 with the Packard Bell 286 (it has a meg already)
>                 or the IBM-PC clone 386?
> 
>                 That is, are any of the RAM chips swappable?
I couldn't say for sure, but odds are the memory from the Apple won't do you
much good on the 286 or 386 boxes. Don't forget: the 6502 microprocessor had
a maximum clock speed of about 1 Mhz (if my rusty, dusty memory serves).
The slowest PC XTs do about 4.77 Mhz, which means that any RAM chips used
with the Apple are probably much too slow to work on the PCs (as main system
RAM, at least).

>            
>                 Are any of the cards from the Apple usable?

Yes, but only if you keep using them in the Apple. :)
> 
>                 Can the disk drives be plugged into the controller
>                 board on the 286/386  (and be expected to work)?

The Apple floppy drives have a maximum formatted capacity of 144K or so.
Somehow I don't think you'd really want to use them on an XT or AT: they're
much too small to be useful by today's standards. And no, they won't work 
with an XT or AT floppy controller.

> 
>                 What about the 512 K of memory on the 'RAM Disk'
>                 card I had in the Apple?  Any possibility it will
>                 work in any way, shape or form in the 386?

Well, as I said before, it's probably not fast enough to do you any good on
the 386. Of course, you don't say exactly what 386 you have, but the slowest
would be a 386sx 16Mhz (which is what I have). The RAM from the Apple would
never work at that speed. The 286 is probably 12 Mhz, which is also too fast.

> 
> 
> Hardware mods do not scare me; I can seat chips, solder and make 
> a few basic changes without any hassle -- did it on the Apple all the
> time.   ** But will any of it work from Apple ==> 286/386?
> 
> Is there anything in common between the machines which can be scrapped
> out of the Apple?

The on/off swtich I think... sorry, don't mean to be cynical, but it's
the truth.

> 
> I guess what I am saying is I would love to to put the Apple to an 
> honorable and meaningful death by using whatever I can to enhance and
> improve my two other machines. Cannibalize it entirely and junk the
> rest. Is this realistic at all?

I think your best bet is to just try and fix the Apple ][+. If it's just
a matter of replacing a few 7408 chips, then you should definately go for it.
If you can find a few locally, we're talking an investment of four or five
dollars, tops. (Wholesale, it'd be more like a buck or less.) There's
very little from the Apple that will work on the 286 or 386 I'm afraid.
The only way it could possibly contribute anything towards them would be
if you got it working again and you found a rabid Apple fan to buy it from
you, then put the money towards sprucing up the other machines. 

> 
> Bearing in mind that Apple used Microsoft DOS and Microsoft BASIC
> (which they chose to relabel Applesoft BASIC, but no matter), will any
> of the thousands of old Apple diskettes here with BASIC program on
> them *actually run* without a lot of hassle should I figure a way to
> get them off the Apple disks and onto the 386 disks?  (I suppose I
> could use Norton or similar to get the data moved, but is it worth
> the trouble?)   I know stuff that made specific references to the
> machine and was not relocateable won't run, but what about the more
> general stuff?

Wow... I remember Applesoft Basic. I also remember 'Integer Basic' which
preceeded it and wouldn't allow integer variables with values higer than
32767. I also remember programming in 6502 machine code by typing programs
in byte by byte from the monitor command line. I wrote a program that
manipulated my Apple Cat modem as part of a homebrew Applesoft BBS program...
But I digress. Yeesh... Anyway, purely text-oriented Applesoft Basic programs
will probably run anywhere, assuming they don't do any Stupid Apple Tricks (tm)
like peek/poke values directly into Apple ][ specific registers. Low or Hi-res
graphics programs will probably not work on a PC. I'm basing this on what
little I know of the basic interpreter that comes with MS-DOS (well, that
came with MS-DOS 5.0 at least). There are other Basic interpreter/compiler
packages around though which might be more easily coerced into dealing
with such things. As for transfering the data, heh, well, that's a whole
other matter. On the Apple ][, basic programs were not stored in raw text
form. Once you typed in a line of code, it would be parsed and tokenized,
then stuffed into memory. When you listed the program, this tokenization
would be reversed and the original code displayed. The problem is that when
you saved the program, it would be stored on disk in this tokenized format.
That won't do you a bit of good on a PC: you need the original source code
(meaning an exact program listing stored in a plain text file). Once the
Apple were working again, you might be able to generate such a file by
listing your basic programs and storing the listing. Then there's the matter
of shipping it off to the PC. I wouldn't bother trying to use Norton Utils
on an Apple DOS 3.3 floppy. A better route would be to use that 300 baud
modem you mentioned to just transfer the files to the PC (which assumes that
the PC also has a modem). Is it worth it, you ask? No. not really. Better
you should just get the Apple ][+ working again. :)

> 
> My 286 and 386 both use MS-DOS 6.0.
You have my sympathies.

I use Linux on my machine. From what you said, it sounds like your machine
doesn't use SIMMs for RAM, which is a shame: I was going to recommend that
you run Linux on your 386 too, but you'd need at least 4 megs of RAM to do
anything interesting with it. It is possible to upgrade the machine with
memory expansion cards, but this isn't the optimal solution. If it were me,
I'd look into getting a new motherboard for one of the two machines that
can support more RAM.

> 
> Am I wasting my time?  Should I junk the 2+ and get it over with
> now  (sniff  :(  ) ....
 
No! Fix it, man, fix it! It can rise again! At the very least you might
get to use it as a terminal... or play Star Blazer on it while you're
waiting for your MS-DOS programs to run. >:)

> 
> Anyone have a few 74 LS 08 N chips to spare?  I used the two or 
> three I could find elsewhere narrowing down my problem and still 
> need a couple to replace the ones I worked on.

Scrounge a bit, pal. I'm telling you: they're out there waiting to be found.
If all else fails, just call DigiKey and give them that part number and tell
them how many you want. Ask them to send you a catalog while they're at it:
a DigiKey catalog is a must for any project builder or hardware hacker (yes,
they're free). I've ordered stuff from them several times in the past: they 
ship almost everything same day. In your case, they could have a batch of 
7408's out the door two minutes after you get off the phone with 'em. :)
Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that DigiKey could supply you
with just about every single IC in the the Apple ][+ system, with the notable
exception of the proprietary Apple ][+ monitor ROMs. (Oh they have the same
chips, I'm sure, but not with the same software in them. ;)

> 
> Well thanks for help, etc ... the Apple 2+ was *such a great machine*
> and I would love to have it 'live on' if that is possible, or at
> least become a learning toy for our kid in the next couple years.

Hey, like they used to say: Apple ][ Forever. ;)

> 
> 
> Patrick Townson

-Bill Paul, who will probably get flamed for following this up to an MS-DOS
group

ghod@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu