Re: Official and LEGAL ways to emulate Apple II?

[steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius)]

J. Random Luser <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<q9jebv8ngd7d209r6t3l53lrdl5jtoslag@4ax.com>...
> I am a tech support person at a K-12 public school, and I would like
> to continue to have Apple II software available for staff and
> students. (Yes, even now, some schools are STILL holding onto their
> 15-20 year old Apple II hardware. Hey, I even have two Digicard
> networks running yet.)

*g*

> Even though most of the word processing and business software is
> horribly out of date, the "drill and practice" type games for learning
> math, typing, and reading have not lost their value to elementary
> teachers, and the teachers would still like to have access to the
> software.
> 
> However, it is generally not feasible to continue using Apple II
> hardware. The hardware takes up space that could be better used by
> even a "low-end" $500 1gHz system -- with more than 1000 times the
> speed and capability of the original Apple IIe.

*sigh* I know...

> Additionally, I have pressure from the school superintendent to get
> rid of the Apples simply for "image" reasons. We want to appear to the
> public to be current and up-to-date, and to have an attractive image
> to potential new teaching staff. How can you do that when you've got
> totally obsolete Apple II hardware (some of it now nearly 20 years
> old) sitting in classrooms?
> 
> At this point, emulation seems to be the proper path to go. I have
> used the Janzer-Schmidt version of AppleWin and like it a lot. I have
> also converted some 150 old MECC floppies into disk images, put them
> on a Netware server, and even have them appearing in an individual
> computer's Start Menu, direct from the server. Just go to the Start
> menu, select the program, and it instantly loads in AppleWin.
> Everything is working great!

*g*  

> Except there is one problem. I cannot determine how we can officially
> and legally use the Apple IIe ROM with the emulator. I do not want to
> do this "on the sly". I want to be able to do this in a fully public
> manner that can be shared with other schools and is looked on by Apple
> as being acceptable to them. We are after all a public institution and
> as such we should be doing things in a fully legal and proper manner. 

I agree fully with that.

> I do not want to try and do this "secretly" and then later have all
> the effort wasted if Apple learns what's going on and tries to sue or
> issue "cease and desist" letters to schools, telling them to stop
> using "unlicensed" Apple II emulation in schools. 
> 
> So far, the fully proper route of getting a license to the ROM-code
> from Apple has failed. I hunted around, calling various Apple
> corporate numbers, until I found a special email address for the
> "Intellectual Property Law" department at Apple.
> 
> I sent them a number of anonymous email requests for information on
> how to get a free or low-cost license for the Apple IIe ROM-code for
> K-12 schol use, and got this response back from one of their lawyers:
> 
> >  Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:54:05 -0700
> >  Subject: Re: status update? (Re: Apple II ROM)
> >  
> >  Thank you for your correspondence dated Fri, 25 Apr 2003, which has
> >  been forwarded to me for response.
> >  
> >  At this time Apple has no interest in releasing Apple II ROM code
> >  for additional use.  While we appreciate your interest and support
> >  of Apple, we ask that you respect this policy.
> >  
> >  Thank you for contacting Apple with your question.
> >  
> >  Very truly yours,
> >  APPLE COMPUTER, INC.
> >  
> >  Mark Aaker
> >  Attorney
> >  Apple Law Department

Well, now we have the legal word from Apple themselves (hello, other
emu authors?!)

> So they won't do licensing directly. Is there any "indirect" licensing
> available? Are there any emulators out there that I can buy that
> include the ROM-code and are officially blessed by Apple to include
> the ROM-code with their emulator?

There's something else, but it's got compatibility problems of its
own.  A program called "SimSystem IIe", which runs under DOS, but on
many newer systems it will crash upon exiting, and it has MAJOR
problems running under Windows.  It uses a clean-room implementation
of the ROM, as PC clones use a clean-room implementation of IBM's ROM.
 I would like to see emulation of this clean-room ROM code under other
emulators (AppleWin and Dapple ][, primarily), but unless someone
figures out how to load and bank it, it won't happen :(

There is the possibility that a "leet" 6502 hacker, or a group of
them, could perhaps clone the ROM themselves.  Takers?

> I have also heard a claim that you can emulate as long as you own the
> original machine you are emulating. I have no idea if this is true, or
> if it's just a made-up concept that has no real legal bearing. Has
> this ever been tested in court? (Can you point me to any web info
> relating to this?)

The basis for this claim (I doubt it, but I practice it myself - I
emulate a //e but I actually have a real live Platinum //e at home) is
the idea of keeping a "backup copy" of software you own.  I would be
very cautious about this in your case, as it is not "for personal
use", so it might not fall under the "fair use" clause of copyright
law.

> How far does this concept go? Must you retain a fully functional
> machine, or is it enough to just own the ROMs from the machine? Could
> I pull the ROMs, put them in electrostatic-safe foam, and discard the
> rest of the computer?
> 
> Must you own the exact machine, or is it okay to have the ROMs from a
> newer generation of the computer line and emulate an older version? At
> this school I am trying to upgrade to emulation, we have 25 Apple IIgs
> computers in storage. But I want to use AppleWin, not a IIgs emulator.
> Is it okay to keep the IIgs ROMs around as legal "proof" I can use the
> IIe emulator?

I don't think so.  (But I'll say that KEGS32 is a good IIgs emulator
if that's what you need)
 
> Another question is how the costs of "past purchases" factors into
> this. The school where I work has likely bought more than a hundred
> Apple IIe/IIgs computers in years past. Even if we have now discarded
> the actual hardware, it seems like all that money spent should be able
> to count for something now.

*sigh* Agreed there...

> In my opinion, we should still be able to use an emulated Apple IIe
> even if we discarded the hardware, because we already paid Apple once
> to use the ROM in that hardware. We shouldn't need to pay them again
> to be able to emulate up to as many Apple II computers as we had
> originally purchased some 10-20 years ago.
> 
> If anyone knows the real, legal facts surrounding these issues, I'd
> appreciate some help.

I am sorry that I could not help you any more than I have.  (Psst,
anyone want to help clone the ROMs legally?)

-uso.