Re: My First Computer

[steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius)]

BJ <dontspamme@nosirree.net> wrote in message news:<t7c84vk8lnubtldqekeoptmnciu5f2mkrp@4ax.com>...
> On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:55:08 +1100, "Ross Simpson" <yeah_whatever>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >"Glen" <lpepicel@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message...
> >
> >> >>1. It needs a built-in easy-to-use programming language.
> >> >>
> >> > - some version of LOGO (for very young pre-literate kids)
> >> > - some version of BASIC (for older kids)
> >> > - source for the BASIC and LOGO, written in a better language
> >> >   (like C?), so they can be studied, extended, and modified
> >> >
> >> > I think the next critical tool is:
> >> >
> >> > 2. A machine-language development environment
> >> > - editor
> >> > - assembler
> >> > - debugger
> >> >
> >> > This allows one to get at the machine-code level, both for learning and
> >> > because there are certain tasks where speed and memory requirements
> >> > force you to use it.
> >> >
> >> > I would imagine users would progress from BASIC to C to assembler as
> >> > their interests and abilities grew.
> >> >
> >> > A lot could be learned from modern software development tools used for
> >> > today's microcontrollers. Languages like FORTH also offer some very
> >> > interesting ideas, like incremental assembly and compilation.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I would have a totally different opinion on this.  I'd like to hear what
> >> you think about it.
> >>
> >> 2-
> >> (I agree) that it needs something like Logo with the turtle and simple
> >> commands like "right 90" "Foraward 50" that have graphical feedback for
> >> little kids.
> >
> >Pilot is better & it only has a couple of commands. I learned Logo standing
> >on my head!
> >
> >> I disagree completely that kids should be learning BASIC and then they
> >> should go into C!  The gap between the two is huge.  The worse thing is
> >> that your going to produce about 28 "hack and slash" guys per class of
> >> 30 and only about 2 that write good code.
> >
> >Moving onto C from any other language seems daunting (I'd have BASIC near
> >the top & C down the bottom - even after Assembly!). Learning C after
> >learning Pascal is better.
> >
> >> The number one problem is learning how to program is learning how to
> >> manage complexity.  Anyone can learn how to write a good 60 line program
> >> but few can write a good 60,000 line program.  BASIC doesn't have
> >> features that allow one to do this-- so that class isn't going to teach
> >> them anything but how to write a one pager.
> >
> >Is it possible to write a good BASIC program, but everyone tends to use the
> >easy way out, by filling it with GOTOs. GOSUB is much better & easier to
> >follow.
> >
> >> C does how the ability to do huge programs but the tools that it
> >> provides are non-obvious to the beginner.  C is a KISS (Keep it simple
> >> stupid) language  it provides minimum tools needed to write powerful
> >> programs.  For example C has no namespaces per se.  But these can and
> >> are simulated in C using idioms that use what C does have including the
> >> header files.  Is it going to be easier to teach about namespaces with a
> >> language with direct suport for them via a "namespace" keyword or are
> >> you going to have a leacture where the class looks at a hieracrcy of c
> >> header files and maybe two of them get it.
> >
> >
> >TRUE!
> >
> >Ross.
> >
> 
> But, COME'ON people, you still program in BASIC using GOTOs or GOSUBs?
> TI XB had CALL statements with SUBPROGRAMS since 1980 or so, and
> QBASIC has SUBPROGRAMS and FUNCTIONS (real Pascal type functions, not
> the DEFFN one-liners).
> Why are you comparing present-day languages to the BASIC of the
> 1970s!?!?
> The two major beefs I have about BASIC is GOTOs ill-used by
> programmers to jump around (they CAN have uses, but you must be
> careful in their use), and IF-ENDIFs all over the place, where
> indentation is your only guide to what the scope of the IF-ENDIF pairs
> are. It is in THIS case that I prefer the one-line IF restriction (no
> ENDIF) of the old line-based interpreters. Scope is VERY EASY to
> figure out!

Then again, some programmers writing in BASIC use *no* indent (indent
is deleted in fact on some versions, like Applesoft).  That's hard as
heck to read. :D

-uso.