Re: A2 Trade/Swap ... site ...

[Roy and/or Janet Miller <millers@inetnebr.com>]

Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] wrote:

> In message <396C95B2.A69AFA13@inetnebr.com>
> Roy and/or Janet Miller <millers@inetnebr.com> writes:
>
> >Some times I had to wrestle the person to the ground, sometimes
> >I had to run a foot race, and then tackle the person. I was never in
> >any danger of committing a crime however, for I was a
> >citizen enforcing the law, and here in the US that's legal (with some
> >limitations however.)
>
> This is incorrect. A citizen's arrest can only be made for a felony
> or misdemeanor violation of the law AND you must do it at the
> time of infraction AND you must have witnessed it yourself.

Shop lifting in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is a misdemeanor, I was a
witness of each event, and I did not have to make the arrest until after
the person who had concealed the merchandise had already passed through
the checkouts and was heading for the door (or was entering the rest
rooms.) Further, I did have the assistance of other store personal who had
not witnessed the infraction and who did have the legal right to assist
me.

>
> If less than a misdemeanor infraction is observed you have
> no right to detain anyone. i.e. If you detain a jaywalker YOU
> have committed a serious crime.

Now I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but what kind of crime is less than a
misdemeanor? I suspect that jaywalking is a misdemeanor in many places (it
doesn't matter in NYC - there the punishment is death - there are only two
types of pedestrians in NY - the quick and the dead. I hated working
there.)

>
> Additionally, if you "wrestle the person to the ground" or
> especially if you "run a footrace, and then tackle the person"
> and that person is injured in ANY manner because of it
> you become liable for that persons injuries and can be
> sued by the person you assaulted.

Not if the person was resisting arrest, and if the arrest was not a false
arrest.

> Additionally, you may
> be held criminally liable for any injury or death you cause.
>
> In the USA, I might add ;o)
>
> Don't believe me? There is a security guard in Dearborn,
> Michigan in real hot water right now facing felony murder or
> manslaughter charges because he and his colleagues
> tried to detain a family they saw shoplifting jewelry .
> When the father punched one of the security guards he was
> put  in a choke hold by the other guard and suffocated to
> death.

If a police office did the same there would be similar problems for him or
her - we had that happen here in Nebraska a few years ago. However, that
father not only resisted arrest, but committed assault and battery on the
security guard. The question then becomes one of was the guard using
excessive force to 1) restrain the individual, and 2) to protect himself
from harm.

>
> Witnessing a felony assault does not give a citizen a right
> to accost the perpetrator.

If you do nothing, you are an accessory to the crime. You have the right
to use force, up to and including deadly force (depending on the
situation) to stop a felony assault.

> If you detain him, you better not
> touch him. Licensed security guards are only private
> citizens in the USA and only have the same
> "citizen's arrest" rights as you or I.
>

Agreed on the last part. However, depending on the local laws, the guard
does have that right to not merely touch, but to physically restrain, just
as you do when someone enters your home. You even have the right to kill
someone, so long as you believe that you own, or anther's life is in
danger. You may still have to tell it to the jury, but that right is
English Common law and is up held, to the best of my knowledge, in all 50
states.

>
> Careful Roy, someday your luck may run out ;o)

I'm too old, arthritic and fat to do that stuff any more. LOL - I once
"lost" a bust because he ran faster than I did, and was glad I did: he was
about three inches taller and had about 50 lbs of muscle more than I had.
The worst part was when I sprang out of concealment, flashed my badge and
told him to freeze... he took a good look at me and laughed!

Roy