Re: Asimov Mirror Sites Access Information

[pausch@saafNOSPAM.se (Paul Schlyter)]

In article <392ae10c.12220529@news>,
Jeff Blakeney <CUTblakeney@home.com> wrote:
 
> On 21 May 2000 10:47:44 +0200, pausch@saafNOSPAM.se (Paul Schlyter)
> wrote:
> 
>> This is blantantly false!  Copyrights won't last forever -- there is a time
>> limit to copyright protection.  Didn't you know that?
> 
> Yes, I'm completely aware that copyrights do expire but they last for
> a minimum of somewhere in the range of 50 to 100 years.  If you'll
> take note, we are talking about Apple II software here.  Absolutely no
> copyright on any piece of Apple II software has expired yet.
 
Not yet, but eventually they will.... :-)
 
 
>> The fact also remains that none of the copyright holders really care,
>> or else Asimov would have been sued long long ago.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that most, if any, of the copyright holders
> even know their stuff is being illegally distributed.  I have seen
> several copyright holders that immediately asked those sites to remove
> their titles after being informed that there stuff was on them.
 
OK, some do care.  Did they get their stuff removed?  If not, did they
take legal action?
 
 
>> Why did you add the "..and decent" to the end of that sentence?  The
>> remainder of your post deals only with legality issues but not at all
>> with decency issues.
> 
> Because it is common decency not to steal other people's property.
 
So if I pass by your house, and pick up e.g. a stone residing just
inside your property (an ordinary stone that's worth nothing and that
you didn't care about), am I then acting indecently?  After all, it
did reside a few inches inside the border of your property, so
legally you could claim I stole it....
 
 
>> If you want to try to argue "legal is always decent, illegal is
>> always indecent", I have two counterexamples:
> 
> I'm not.  Legallity and decency are two entirely different things.
 
OK, then we fully agree.  Please keep the discussion about legality and
decency separate then, and don't say "legal and decent"; instead say
"legal", or say "decent", depending on which discussion we're having.
 
 
>> Why not instead aim at the more modest goal of avoid acting
>> indecently?  Which in this case translates to: don't use pirate
>> copies of those products which still are of value, or where the
>> copyright owners still care about their copyright.
> 
> There are a number of reasons I won't do that.  Here are a few:
> 
> - It can be very difficult to tell whether a product still has value
> or whether the copyright owner still cares about it.
 
One can always ask him....
 
 
> - As it is still illegal for me to use copies of software against the
> express written wishes of the copyright owner, regardless of whether
> the product has any value or the copyright owner cares about it, I'd
> rather avoid any legal problems that might arise from doing so.
 
That's of course a practical matter to consider for anyone breaking a
copyright: you may get into legal trouble.  Just like if you cross the
street against a red light: you may get run over by a car.  But anyone
have to figure out for themselves whether they think it's worth that
risk.  And it's as pointless to shout "You should never break a copyright
even for software that's abandonware with no value" as it is to shout
"You should never cross the street against a red light, even if it's 2 AM
and no car is in sight".
 
 
> - I'd rather not take money away from people who might have an
> original for sale.
 
I fully agree with you!  If the software still is worth anything, the
copyright should be respected.  However this doesn't apply to abandonware.
 
 
> - It is just common decency not to take something that doesn't belong
> to you.
 
Do you ALWAYS follow this rule?  Do you NEVER EVER break it?  OK, then if
you're out hiking in the woods, do you ever pick up a stick or a stone from
the ground and bring with you?  You shouldn't do that, since it's not yours!!!
First you must locate the landowner and ask him for permission to pick up
that stick or stone, right?  Or.... ?????
 
 
> - There is a ton of stuff that I can get legally including public
> domain, freeware, shareware, reclassified titles, stuff I already own,
> buying used copies or buying new, still commercially available titles.
 
Excuse me, but we're talking about old Apple II software here.  Could you
please provide me a list of the new Apple II software that's still available
commercially?  Ok, perhaps there are one or two such products, but that
list is very short, right?  And they're all stuff for the IIgs, nothing for the
original II or II+, right?
 
Let's skip the "new commercially available titles" here, because they're so
very few anyway.
 
 
> Why should I bother pirating stuff when I don't need to.
 
Well, if you think we should always refrain from doing something unless
we really needed to do it, I guess we could throw away all our old
Apple II stuff, since we really don't *need* it, right?
 
Otherwise I think that if all the tthree conditions below apply,
then it's acceptable to "pirate" the software:
 
1. The copyright holder cannot be located, despite serious attempts, so you
   cannot ask for permission
 
2. The software is abandonware since many years and is obviously without
   commercial value: it cannot be bought anywhere, it hasn't been advertised
   for a very long time, etc
 
3. The risk of getting into legal trouble because of this is virtually nonexistent
 
If all these conditions apply, I won't feel indecent at all if I make
a "pirate" copy of this -- just like I won't feel indecent by picking
up a stick or a stone from the ground of someone else's property:
nobody is getting harmed in any way by such an action.
 
Do I *need* to do this?  Of course not!  I don't *need* to deal with
the old Apple II and its software at all; I would easily survive
without it.  But we do a lot of things just because we *want* to,
even if we don't *need* to do them.  And I think that's perfectly OK,
as long as we don't do anyone else any harm.
 
 
-- 
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