Re: Apple II Reference Manual ("Red Book")

[CUTblakeney@home.com (Jeff Blakeney)]

On 18 Apr 2000 09:09:22 +0200, pausch@saafNOSPAM.se (Paul Schlyter)
wrote:

>Dunno -- you're the one insisting on bringing it up over and over again.

When I do enter into these discussions, it is usually in response to a
message that mentions doing something that is illegal without telling
anyone that it is illegal.  My response is just to let people know
that it is illegal.  Unfortunately, others come along and keep trying
to convince me it isn't illegal or that they are justified in doing
this illegal thing.

>Warn about what?  I don't think the people who downloads such stuff
>for their personal use is at any risk at all.

Warn them of the illegality of what is being mentioned.  Just because
you don't think they are at risk doesn't mean that they will agree
with you.  It would be nice to warn them that you are pointing them to
a product that is being distributed illegally and let them decide for
themself whether it is worth the risk.

>I never claimed it did.  Likewise it's illegal to cross the street
>against a red light, but still people finds justifications for doing it.

I'm not interested in justifications.  I don't care why you feel it is
okay for you do be doing illegal things, I'm just saying that it is
illegal.

>I don't think I ever claimed it was technically legal.  Could you quote
>me where I said so?  I think not....

Others have claimed this.  Your argument is similar so I put you in
the same group.  I guess I was generalizing and included you in
particular by mistake.  My apologies.

>BTW if I would break the copyright on something which no longer has
>any value - what would I have "stolen"?  The copyright owner didn't
>lose anything, and I didn't gain anything (except perhaps some fun).

You've stolen someone else's ideas, hard work and effort to name a
few.  Copyrights are there to protect the intangible, not tangible
things like rocks.

By the way, in your rock example, if the owner threw away the rock, he
relinquished his ownership of it so you finding it on the street and
keeping it is fine.

To relate this to what we've been talking about, in the case of the
Red Book, as far as we know, the copyright owners have not "thrown
away" their copyright so it is illegal to take it.

>What's the difference really?  Society needs defense against those who
>breaks laws - that's why we have police and courts.  If the defense is
>successfull, you can call it "enforcement".

Defense means to try to stop a crime from happenning BEFORE it occurs.
Admitedly, just by existing police forces and the threat of being
found guilty in a court of law and being put in prison do deter some
people from committing a crime, but that is not why they exist.

They are there to enforce the law AFTER it has been broken.  The
police track down the culprit and bring them to be judged in a court
of law.  If they are found guilty, then the court passes sentence.

By the way, another point in my favour is that it is called law
enforcement, not law defense.  :-)

>> I would hardly say I'm being "intense" in discussing this.
> 
>I think you are....
> 
>> I'm simply replying to messages just like I do any other message.
>> If I was being intense, I'd probably be using much stronger language.  :-)
> 
>OK, let's call it "persistent" then....

Funny, I've only posted a single messagee a day about this subject in
the past few days and I just finished reading about five from you
today and you think I'm being intense?  :-)

>You mean stuff like TCP/IP stacks etc?  There are TCP/IP stacks
>for CP/M-80, but I've never herd about anyone for the Apple II.
>Shouldn't be impossible though -- the CP/M TCP/IP stacks runs in
>something like 30k of RAM.

I made no mention of what software I'm working on.  Many people here
know that I'm working on an e-mail client for the IIgs, though.  I
also have a few other little projects that I want to finish up and
have several more larger applications to start when I finish the ones
I'm currently working on.

By the way, the reason I'm writing an e-mail client is because there
is already a TCP/IP stack for the IIgs.  It is called Marinetti and it
has been around for almost three years.

>Now you make me wonder: are you REALLY a programmer?  Are you sure
>you're not actually a lawyer?   <g>

Heh.  Well I've never been to law school but I have been programming
computers for almost 19 years.  :-)

However, getting back to the point.  Posting the Red Book to a web
site without the copyright holder's permission is illegal.

I will not argue about whether doing so is morally or ethically okay.
Those are both subjective beliefs.  To illustrate this point, I
believe it is morally and ethically wrong to steal someone else's work
but others don't and there is nothing to support either position.

However, when it comes to whether it is illegal or not, there is
copyright law to back up my assertion that doing so is illegal.

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