Re: bxy file woes

[supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer)]

spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) wrote:

>In article supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) writes...
>
>>spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) wrote:
>>
>>>    At this point in time, I can't imagine not having a PC or Mac
>>>for dedicated Internet access (or something similarly capable).
>>>This does not at all imply giving up on the Apple II, I just think
>>>setting up another system *solely* to do web browsing (plus video
>>>and audio streaming) makes a lot of sense to have on the side. I
>>>haven't given up on my IIgs, I consistently post and read this
>>>newsgroup using my IIgs running ProTERM, but if I want to browse
>>>web pages, I jump over to my PC running Netscape.
>>>
>>>    Price isn't an issue anymore, you can get an old 486DX2/66
>>>with 16 MB of RAM, 200+ MB hardrive, 14" VGA screen, keyboard,
>>>mouse and cheap 16-bit sound card for under US$50. I'm sure you
>>>could do equally as well and get a Macintosh Quadra equipped
>>>similarly for the same price or slightly more. Going online has
>>>a whole new meaning on a PC or Mac compared with what your used
>>>to on the Apple II. I'll bet this is something even Supertimer
>>>and I can agree on. :)
>>
>>Oh I do agree up to a point.  I agree that it is nice to have
>>a fast Mac or Windows PC to run Netscape on.  However,
>>a 486DX2/66 is VERY pokey in processing web pages.
>>I'd rather stick with lynx and the Apple II for that.
>
>    Actually Netscape 3.x runs decently on a 486DX2/66 (though
>I wouldn't say the same of anything slower) and if it isn't to
>your liking, there are alternative graphical web browsers for
>the PC that run faster and require less memory than Netscape
>on older/slower machines. The the name slips my mind at the
>moment, but I installed such a browser on my 386.

Mosaic?  AOL 2.x built in browser?  These work and yes,
they do require less memory, but if you choose to load
graphics, the computer slows down A LOT!  These
browsers are programmed inefficiently, something that
Netscape (and to a lesser extent Internet Explorer) has
overcome through continued development.

Just try to run Mosaic or AOL 2.x's browser on your
CURRENT Windows PC and compare them against
Netscape or Internet Explorer.  Mosaic and AOL 2.x's
will run far slower, so no they will not help in speed.

(AOL 2.x was before AOL replaced its own browser
with Internet Explorer.)

>>A Pentium 75 and a 33.6k modem is the minimum that I
>>would think acceptable to run Netscape on.
>
>    Well I managed with a 14.4k modem for Netscape up until
>very recently, which may not have been blazing fast, but
>certainly quite servicable.

I tried to do this once but it was so damned slow that
I really did prefer Lynx.  And that's no lie.  I even
used Lynx on the Windows PC when I only had a
14.4k modem.

>>Not everyone is so fortunate, however, Mitch.  I once
>>knew someone who went over to a retirement home
>>to use donated 8-bit Apple II units and modems to
>>connect to the Internet via shell accounts.  These people
>>don't have $50 to shell out.
>
>    I agree with you there, that is something I overlooked.
>However, if someone on a tight budget scrapes together and
>spends a hundred dollars or more upgrading their IIe or
>IIgs by purchasing new hardware and software, then that
>arguement falls flat.

Someone in a retirement home using a donated Apple II,
software, and a freenet account is not going to be
upgrading the Apple II unit.  The case I'm talking about
involves 128k Apple IIe units with 5.25" floppy disk
disk drives, donated copies of ProTERM, and freenet
accounts.  You don't need to upgrade those units if
they are just going to act as VT100 terminals.

>>I can imagine very well the chance that a lynx freenet
>>account plus a free Apple II and modem can do for
>>these people.  It can get them on the Internet.
>>
>>We should give older folks like Adalbert a break.
>>Ever think why his prefers ProDOS 8 to GS/OS?
>
>    I think Adalbert uses ProDOS-8 over GS/OS because he has
>no hardrive. GS/OS is hardly usable with floppy disks; when
>I had no hardrive I always looked for software that booted
>from ProDOS-8, booting into GS/OS meant a *long* wait and
>lots of disk swapping (to the point my hands would actually
>tire from inserting and removing floppies so much).

For sure that would play a role if Adalbert was young.
However, he has said himself that he's 70 years old
with limited dexterity and uses a freenet account.

>>Older folks often lack the manual dexterity to use
>>a mouse properly.  It is not a crime.  That's another
>>reason why they often prefer to use lynx instead
>>of something graphical.
>
>    Huh? I think you have that backwards. If anything, elderly
>persons (or very young children) would find it easier to use a
>point and click mouse interface with graphical visual aids on
>screen.

Huh?  Then why do older folks eventually stop driving?
It is because they become less able to cope with "analog"
tracking tasks.  I've personally helped some of them learn
to use computers.  The hardest thing they have trouble
with is tracking the mouse and sometimes double-clicking.
They have no trouble comprehending and generally find
text based shells and/or menu based systems easier to use.

>Lynx and obscure Unix commands are very intimidating
>to not just to the very old and young, but anyone who is not
>computer literate. I tried to get my sister started with a
>shell account and Lynx, but she gave up on it after short time
>because it was too complex and frustrasting for her (and she
>is just a few years older than I am).

Your sister is from the same generation as you and still
young.  We are talking about the OLDER generation
as in around 70!

>OTOH, when I put her in
>front of a Mac or PC running Netscape, it took her only a few
>minutes to figure everything out and was exploring web pages
>on her own. Although I understand Lynx, even I find it rather
>clumsy and cumbersome to use, especially in a time where the
>vast majority of web pages heavily rely on graphics.

Actually, I understand Lynx pretty well.  It is not that
hard but more to the point, I'd bet older folks would
have an easier time navigating using Lynx's keyboard
commands than trying to use a mouse and GUI.

I agree, the GUI is conceptually easier and more intuitive,
but only if you can work well with a mouse.