Re: FS Loaded //Gs, Software, MISC.

[spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector)]

In article rubywand@swbell.net writes...

>Mitchell Spector writes ...
>>     To add to your comment, I think it is totally unrealistic, to say
>> the least, when someone asks US$700 for an Apple IIgs system. No IIgs
>> is worth that today
>
>     Depends upon the GS.

    The configuration of the GS is almost completely irrelevant. We're
still talking about a computer that is 12 years old, and not just simply
obsolite by today's standards, but now countless generations behind in
terms of technological advancements. Your certainly in the right to
inflate the price slightly because of third party enhancements included,
but only within reason.

>A good working 'loaded' system (max RAM, RamFAST SCSI, 4 diskette drives,
>hard disk, CD-ROM drive, SCSI Zip Drive, 10/64 ZipGSx, SystemSaver/IIgs,
>stereo, quality joysticks, ...) is going to cost at least $700.

    Sure, if you go through a commercial vendor and purchase a IIgs
system with all the extra frills to make it more usable, you would
no doubt end up spending close to US$700. Unfortunately, resellers
are *not* what determine the market value of obsolite computers. If
you think I'm mistaken, go see what Sun Remarketing charges for an
original 1981 IBM PC or a Macintosh Plus with 20 MB hardrive.

>> --unless we're talking about a "Mark Twain", with,
>> say, a box loaded with several Apple made Ethernet cards, as well as
>> a couple of Video Overlay Cards and SuperDrive controllers thrown in
>> for good measure. ;-)
>
>     The "Mark Twain" was, basically, a hoax.

    Your quite wrong. The "Mark Twain" was anything but a hoax, Apple
*DID* build prototype motherboards in an effort to put more built-in
feature in the IIgs, working towards a goal to make the machine more
affordable and usable (out of the box) to people in the education and
home markets. The concept of the Macintosh LC and Apple's marketing
beliefs basically killed it.

    By saying it is a hoax, are you trying to insinuate respectable
people like Joe Kohn and Tony Diaz concocted the whole thing to try
and fool the Apple II community? I suppose I must be too, since I've
known about for 8 years now--long before I even knew who Joe or Tony
were--and have been spreading the word about it all these years.

>None of the machines comes remotely close to matching a loaded modern
>GS system. The machines are interesting and, maybe, fun to play with;
>that's about it.

    Your certainly right about that. Mind you, keep in mind the "Mark
Twain" was only a half baked prototype, Apple cancelled the project
before it was completed, so all the "Mark Twain" amounts up to is an
_aborted attempt_ by Apple Computer to enhance the IIgs. The only bit
that is questionable here is what else would have been added to it had
the engineers been allowed to finish the project. Better graphics?
A faster processor? A new Ensoniq chip or enhancements given to the
old one? One can only guess...

>>     A stock Apple IIgs setup consisting of a CPU, 3.5 and 5.25 floppy
>> drives, RGB monitor and 1 MB memory is worth maybe $50 today.
>
>     In your dreams, maybe.

    I think your the one who's dreaming. That is a very respectable
price for a 12 year old system with no frills added, in fact some
would probably argue that price estimate is a little too generous.
(take the hardrive equipped 386DX and Mac+ I bought this month for
about US$3 a piece).

    I paid close to $4,000 Cdn for my Apple IIgs, which consisted of
pretty much what is listed above (replace 1 MB RAM with 768K and add
ImageWriter II) but I cannot use that as justification for what to
charge for it today. Nor can I use its features, which had mostly
excelled above and beyond most computers of its area, as justification
for a high asking price either.

>Sure, anyone can luck-off and find a ROM-01 system like the one you
>describe above at a garage sale for $50 or, even, $15. As such finds
>are snapped up, it is getting harder to find sellers who do not know
>which end is up-- who do not know, for example, that you can sell just
>the keyboard for $25 and the mouse for $10. Without much trouble, you
>can get $30-$50 for the monitor, $20 for a platinum 5.25" drive and a
>bit more for a 3.5" drive. Then, you can pull the power supply and sell
>it for $30-$40. Finally, you can pull the 01 ROM and VGC to sell for
>$30 to a ROM-00 machine owner.

    The sellers "who do not know which end is up", as you put it, are
those asking high 3 digit figures for Apple II computers. You have to
be realistic here, it is *1998*, not 1988. As newer technology comes out,
it makes the generation of technology before it drop below that, and
the generation before that drop even lower and so on (it's all connected,
you cannot exclude one computer from this pricing domino effect because
it was neat for its time or you personally think it was, and still is,
the greatest thing you've ever seen).

    Your convinced a well equipped Apple IIgs is still worth US$700,
correct? Well let us look at how off this is, using my current PC as
an example. Beside my Apple IIgs, I have a 166 MHz Pentium computer
sitting in a medium tower, with 32 MB memory, 2 MB video card, 24X
CD-ROM drive, Pro AudioSpectrum 16 and Roland SCC-1 sound boards, a
total of 3.8 GB of hardrive storage, 17" monitor along with a 3.5
drive, keyboard and mouse. If I tried to sell it today, it would not
be worth US$700. So, how on earth do you figure that the Apple IIgs
is worth *MORE* than this semi-modern PC system? Even with every
possible upgrade available to the IIgs added, it will not hold a
candle to the Pentium (it has trouble keeping up with the $5 386DX
for that matter). It doesn't have to be a PC, I could use the same
example with some older PowerMacintosh systems. You must remember,
the MONETARY value of a computer is much different from its WORTH
TO THE USER. It's quite sad people see my saying an "Apple IIgs is
worth $50" as an outright attack on the machine itself. I consider
myself one of the biggest IIgs fans (fanantic should I say? ;) world-
wide, but I know it is it realistically worth on the market.

Mitchell Spector
spec@vax2.concordia.ca