Re: Nathan and the Apple Community.

[supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer)]

godot22@earthlink.net (PJ Killian) writes:

>As a person who is primarily (though not totally) an emulator user these
>days, I feel I should speak.

Please do.

>supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) wrote:
>
>> "Stephen B. Field" <sfield1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >I think Nathans problem, and a portion of the apple community is they
>> >believe that the product still has some real retail viability left to it.
>> 
>> It has some viability.  At least two people who market A2 related
>> stuff derive most of their income through their A2 businesses.
>
>There is a difference between "viability" and "existance". There is a
>market for spare parts for obsolete machines, that doesn't mean that the
>machines themselves are "commercially viable". The Apple II is an obsolete
>computer. That doesn't mean "bad" or "worthless", it just means that the
>mainstream of computer technology has passed it by. If it is useful to you,
>by all means, go ahead and use it. But obsolesence comes a long time before
>the last Apple II user on earth gives it up.

Sure, it is old.  And again, I AM NOT NATHAN...who cares about
piracy of the 20+ year old titles.  However, people DO care when
current software that IS still viable is being pirated.  Titles like
AppleWorks 5.1 or Proterm 3.1 or Marinetti or Spectrum or
GraphicWriter III...you get the picture.  Same thing in the C64
world...who cares if some game on a Datasette is pirated, but
if GeoFax or the new GEOS upgrade, both current software is
pirated, then real C64 users will be upset.

If an emulator user wants to enjoy 20+ year old out of print
titles, so be it.  I DON'T CARE.  I DO care when CURRENT
titles start showing up on emulator ftp sites, however.  Do
you see the difference?

Understand that piracy of the few remaining software titles
(the CURRENT ones) hurts the chances of NEW software
being written by developers who get DISGUSTED by this.
Real A2 users still WANT new products.  We, not the
emulator users, stand to lose.

Once again, old does not mean no software will be written.
When no one cares about old software, who cares if it
shows up on Asimov.  CURRENT software, however, is
software that real A2 users STILL CARE ABOUT.  This
software should not be there.

See the difference?  Let's not act like Nathan here and
demand an absolute.  Stop claiming that it is ALWAYS
right to pirate ALL Apple2 software because the unit is
old and we will stop talking past one another.  I don't
care if Towers of Hanoi are on that site, but I DO care
when Proterm 3.1 shows up there when it is still being
sold.  Developers of new A2 software care to.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

Stop being like Nathan Mates.

See the shades of gray!

>> >As a
>> >hobby, I have a lot of fun fooling around with this old equipment and have
>> >collected some of the games out there, but don't expect to spend a whole
lot
>> >of money on new applications.
>> 
>> Everybody is different.  It is important for those who do not want
>> to spend money on classic computers to realize that there are
>> others who will.
>
>I don't see what one group has to do with another. Say someone is nostalgic
>for their old Apple IIe and wants to see if years of accumulated wisdom has
>taught them the secret to beating that damn bird in Karateka.

Simple.  The people who mainly use real A2s will say...WHO
CARES ABOUT KARATEKA, JUST DON'T TAKE MY PROTERM
3.1 OR APPLEWORKS 5.1...

The people who mainly use emulators tend to think...karateka
and Proterm 3.1 and AppleWorks 5.1 are ALL THE SAME.
DOWNLOAD THEM ALL.

Don't be like Nathan.  See the shades of gray.  Draw a wise
line.  Don't take Proterm 3.1 or AppleWorks 5.1 or other
current software.  Real A2 development still depends on these
being protected.  WHO CARES IF YOU TAKE KARATEKA.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

>The chances
>of them going to the trouble and expense of going out to track down an old
>A2 system and find a legit working copy of the software are terribly slim.

WHO CARES ABOUT KARATEKA.

Meanwhile, piracy of Proterm 3.1 or AppleWorks 5.1 hurts real
A2 development and is plain wrong and real A2 users are right
to demand Asimov remove them.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE?  DON'T BE LIKE NATHAN.  SEE
THE SHADES OF GRAY.

>People can quibble about exact numbers, but I would be willing to bet a
>tidy sum that the vast majority of people using disk images from Asimov are
>people who just downloaded an emulator and want to either play an old game
>they have fond memories of or try out a game they slobbered over back in
>the day when it was $45 and they only had $5 to their name. Even if these
>people ARE using software which can be purchased, they wouldn't. They
>can't.

The simplest way to avoid Real A2 vs. Emulator wars is for
Asimov to promptly remove a software when it is proven that
the software is still being sold BY THE PUBLISHER.  Simple
matter...if a URL or email address can be provided to Asimov,
Asimov should know that it is being sold and cease and
desist.  It would stop 99% of these Real A2 vs. Emulator
wars dead.

Again, WHO CARES ABOUT KARATEKA.  Proterm 3.1,
AppleWorks 5.1, and other current A2 software (Spectrum,
SIS, GraphicWriter III, Harmonie, etc.) are different...we
DO care about them.

>Oftentimes, they don't own the computer anymore, and wouldn't buy it
>if they could. If there's any shortsightedness in the Apple II community,
>it's the fact that people have deluded themselves into believing that were
>emulators not available generally, Joe Emulator User above would buy an old
>Apple II system and legit copies of the software, assuming he can find
>them.

Look, real A2 users want new software.  We are protecting
our developers.  Simple as that.  Same reason Commodore
users, who can care less about their equivalent of Asimov,
sided overwhelmingly against the people who uploaded
GeoFax, a current program...see, real Commodore users want
the new GEOS under development by the author of GeoFax.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?  DON'T BE BONEHEADED
LIKE NATHAN.  SEE THE SHADES OF GRAY.

>> Nathan was perhaps a little two black and white about the issue.
>
>Perhaps? Saying Nathan was "a little too black and white" about Asimov is
>like saying that Senator McCarthy was "a bit miffed" about Communists in
>the State Department.

We are not Nathan.  If Asimov promptly removes current
A2 wares (not talking about Karateka and stuff) then 99%
of us will be happy.  Don't wait until "explicitely contacted
by the copyright holder"...everyone knows that Proterm 3.1
and AppleWorks 5.1 is still being sold...and if Asimov is
provided with the web page of the company that showed
the product being sold on the publisher's web site, Asimov
should voluntarily remove the product.  Sane policy, is it
not?

>> There are "hundreds of classic games" for the 8-bit A2s that
>> no one cares about,
>
>Wrong. Nathan cared very deeply.

Nathan cared very deeply.

We are not Nathan.

>> but there are also dozens of still marketed
>> A2 and IIGS software that people do.  These are still viable and
>> regularly sell significant copies.  This is how places like Seven
>> Hills manage to stay in business.  These still "living" software
>> should not be pirated.
>
>And anyone who cares about the future of such a marginal computer system as
>the Apple II should feel the same way. Piracy may well have had a hand in
>the death of the Apple II as a mass-market computer, but what's done is
>done, and there's no sense in shutting the barn door after the horse has
>run away.

Now THAT is the wrong way to think about it.  If Commodore
users thought that when GeoFax was pirated (remember, they
also have an Asimov equivalent) then they would never have
gotten the new GEOS upgrade...instead, they rallied around
the programmer, "shut the barn door", and now they got their
upgrade.

It is never too late as long as there is a developer left.

>> Unlike Nathan, we should know how to
>> see beyond black and white.  We should know how to say that
>> ok, those 20 year old games...who cares if they are copied, but
>> at the same time, admit that we should not do ANYTHING to
>> jeapordize the remaining commercial software.  That's the only
>> way we will get NEW software, and we ARE getting new software
>> every single day...so is the Commodore...look at the NEW GEOS!
>
>But if (as I suspect) your average emulator user is primarily interested in
>the 20 (or 10) year old games, no harm, no foul.

Then why did GeoFax turn up in a pirate site?  Why did
Proterm 3.1 and AppleWorks 5.1 show up on Asimov?
Why does Asimov not just remove the program WHEN IT
IS PROVEN IT IS STILL BEING SOLD BY THE PUBLISHER.
No need to wait for a personal email from the company,
you know...

>Meanwhile, if you were to
>(in the name of doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to protect supported software)
>make Asimov suddenly magically disappear,

Who cares about Asimov and their Karatekas.  Real A2 users
sure don't.  We are not Nathan.  Asimov's old stuffs are not
at issue.  It is Asimov's treatment of the issues when current
software show up on the site.  My take is THEY SHOULD
NOT INSIST ON NOT REMOVING A CURRENT SOFTWARE
WITHOUT EXPLICIT REQUEST BY THE COMPANY.  A simple
proof of current commerciality...proof of sale by the publisher
...should be enough.  In the case of Proterm 3.1, it was right
there on the web site of the publisher.

>you wouldn't actually stop those
>who really WANT to pirate current software. You might not make it
>appreciably harder.

I dunno...an Asimov GS popped up recently, you know.

>Meanwhile, the vast majority of people in the A2
>community (who aren't thieves) accrue no benefit, and Joe Emulator User who
>wants to finally get through Harkyn's Castle in Bard's Tale is SOL.

Asimov plus an ammended "currently commercial software
removal" policy should be enough.  Who cares about the
other stuff...

>> Helping is good, converting all the .shk files to .dsk is NOT.  Do
>> you know how much more difficult it would be to download software
>> for real Apple IIs?
>
>Agreed. It's hard for real Apple II owners to download from Asimov? Fine.
>Let Asimov be the resource that it is for the emulator user. Real A2 users
>have FTP sites with plenty of .shk software to use. You don't mess with Joe
>Emulator User, he won't mess with you. He's probably not terribly
>interested in ProTerm anyway, whatever the hell that is.

Proterm is like Procomm on the Wintel...it is a VT100 plus a dozen
other terminal emulations and Zmodem plus a dozen other transfer
protocols.

We don't want to mess with Asimov.  We want Asimov not to
mess with our Proterm (and spit it out when proven that it is
still being sold by publisher).

>Asimov is
>obviously geared towards the emulation crowd, otherwise the files would be
>in a more convenient format. Why change this fact?

No change except policy regarding commercial software that's
current.

>> Real A2 will always come first.  Emulators
>> second.
>
>Says who, why and how do you propose to enforce this dictum?

Err, real A2 users will always come first at the legit .shk
sites like ground.  Real A2 users paid for the ground ftp
server, did you know that.

Emulators already have Asimov.

The above was a response to the fellow who asked why
wasn't ground catering to emulator users first and why
couldn't ground convert their .shk wares into .dsk.

Well, ground does not carry Asimov type stuff.  It depends
on newly written sharewares/freewares.  These are
written on real A2 units.  Real A2 units like .shk.  Also,
GS software like musics, programs, stacks, graphics,
and what not typically far exceed 143k (800k to 1.5MB
is the typical size).  That's why ground will always cater
to real A2 users first...we FEED it and we GAVE BIRTH
to it.

Who enforces it?  The University of Iowa and the ground
librarian.  University policy, you know...they can't take
even old .dsk Karateka era stuff...

>> >The community has a real elitest attitude that you have to own an apple in
>> >order to run the software.   Again, I feel that this just simply chases
away
>> >more possible members.
>> 
>> Wrong.  Comp.sys.apple2 is mainly for real A2 users.
>> Comp.emulators.apple2 is mainly for emulator users.
>> Everyone should be happy.
>
>Theoretically, yes. But when csa2 people plot out how best to destroy the
>FTP site that is (for better or for worse) the primary resource for
>emulator users,

Nathan, not us.

We'd be happy to keep hands off Asimov if Asimov keeps hands
off our Proterm and similar current software.

>the goings-on in this newsgroup become the business of
>emulator users. That's just one example. If the average csa2 reader shed
>their apparent belief that emulator users are this parasitic bunch of
>freeloaders with no stake in the future of the platform, you might find
>that they have something to offer.

However, comp.sys.apple2 is still mainly for real A2 users.
Obviously, emulator questions would be best served in
comp.emulators.apple2.

>> Also, even the emulator users admit that to legally use an emulator,
>> you must also own the real computer.
>
>Yes. And yet many don't. The shock. The horror. Never IMAGINED that that
>would be the case, did you?

Then you are pirates.  Pirates by definition.  No one cares about
this type of piracy, but it is you know.  Just admit it, unlike
the cowardly emulator authors who hide their asses by telling
the user to get the ROM from a legitly owned A2 when they
know full well non A2 users would be using them.

I, for one, don't care about this stuff.  Just hands off our CURRENT
software.

>> >If it wasn't for the emulators, I wouldn't have gotten back into the apple
>> >again.
>> 
>> XGS does not cut it for me.  It can't do the things my real GS can
>> do.  If I were a IIe user, then maybe an emulator would cut it...
>
>Well, Bernie for Mac is a pretty good product, or so I've been told. I
>wouldn't know since despite the fact that I have used an emulator and disk
>images from Asimov (and am therefore ipso facto a villanous pirate out to
>destroy the community of software developers), I prefer to not use
>shareware I haven't paid for. Since I can't afford to register Bernie, I
>don't use it. Life's little ironies...

Then for the benefit of both emulator and real A2 users, help
convince Asimov to promptly remove currently sold software
like Proterm 3.1 eccetra.  You seem to be a pretty upright person
if you don't use the unregistered Bernie...or is it because
Bernie locks you out when you don't register?  ;-)

>Emulation of IIe is very good. For those who only occasionally want or need
>to use A2 software, an emulator is a very practical alternative to a
>physical IIe.

Emulation of IIe is very good.  The best IIe emulator is the
one in the Apple IIGS.  I use it from time to time, but mostly
I stick to native Apple IIGS software.