Re: A Tale of Two Apples

[spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector)]

In article bjblackbear@ibm.net (B.J. Major) writes...

>Mitchell Spector <spec@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:
>>     The Apple II and II Plus, yes, were adequately supported. Beyond
>> that (from 1979 and onwards to be exact) Apple did everything it could
>> do try and kill the Apple II. Do you know the stories behind the Apple
>> III? Oh, and the Lisa and Macintosh were not just another interesting
>> product within the company, they were made to replace Apple's bread and
>> butter: the Apple II (which Apple feared people would lose interest in,
>> so kept looking to replace it as quickly as they could and let its
>> development lag).
>
>The Apple IIe and the Apple IIc were supported for many years by Apple
>and by third party companies, despite what you say above.  I have the
>software and hardware items in my possession to prove that.

    How do you define support? Keeping the machines on the price list?
Third party support has nothing to do with _Apple Computer_, I thought
we were discussing the mother company's support.

    Sure, Apple did occasionally do software revisions to ProDOS 8 and
released some hardware accessories add-ons to sell to owners, but try
and imagine what would have happened to the Macintosh if this kind of
"support" were done to it. Try turning the tables here and think about
where the Macintosh would be in that case?

>>     I think people who've brought up Intel machines make an excellent
>> point. Those machines are totally backwards compatible yet still are
>> able to maintain state-of-the-art technology and power.
>
>And as I told them recently, that has to end and end soon or else future
>upgrading or expansion will hit a brick wall.  No machine can remain
>backward compatible forever, period.

    Those people have also made yet another excellent point, doing
upgrading and advancement in steps. Always one step forward and one
step back, enough of a buffer behind the machine for people to have
a chance to make a transition. By doing so you continually leave a
path to follow, with no one being left behind. Apple made no path
for Apple II users, they just created a dead-end with the IIgs.
That was a fatal mistake in the long run and now they're paying for
it today (they lost millions of loyal customers!). That dead-end
was _artifically_ created too, and that is where the problem lies.

>>>And while I'm on this subject, I believe that the heart and soul of the
>>>Apple II lies with its 8 bit computers, not the 8/16 bit GS.  True, the
>>>GS was the last of the line, but it gets far more attention in this
>>>group than the other Apple II models get.  I presume that's because
>>>it's more powerful and such, but all the strong emphasis should not be
>>>only on this model.  Are you and others aware that there are people on
>>>this group who have *only* IIc's or IIe's (or even II+'s or II's), have
>>>no need or desire to "upgrade" to a GS and are perfectly content with
>>>their II's?  I really sympathize with these folks because I was in the
>>>same situation not that long ago--and I felt the very same way.  I
>>>still feel a stronger bond to my IIc and IIe than I ever will to the
>>>GS.  If that GS had not appeared in that Goodwill store, I probably
>>>would not have one, period--and we wouldn't be having this
>>>conversation.
>
>>     Any future with the Apple II lies within the IIgs model, it is much
>> more capable for the type of jobs and applications most people out there
>> want. Considering it is also backwards compatible with older Apple IIs,
>> it makes sense to upgrade to an Apple IIgs. This is 1997, not 1987,
>> there is no price barrier as there was then. Notice how the TCP/IP
>> projects are being written for the Apple IIgs, not any of the 8-bit
>> Apple II models. Have you also noticed TrueType font rendering
>> technology, FAX sending/receiving and 3-D model rendering has been
>> adopted to run on the Apple IIgs and not the Apple IIe?
>
>Sorry, but again I have to say "so what"?  For years I had an internet
>shell account that I accessed with my Apple IIe and ProTerm.  The only
>reason I no longer have that account is that it was more expensive per
>month than what I'm paying now to use my Mac on the internet.  And in
>every message now you are continuing to bash the Apple II 8-bit line.
>*So what* that they were 8-bit?  They are STILL very useful machines.

    Have you totally ignored everything I said? Read what is quoted
above from me, then read your reply below it. I think your "so what?"
in response to it sums up your thinking towards any kind of serious
discussion I attempt to carry out with you (it is most evident in
some of the recent replies you've just posted in the last day).

    Where the heck do I bash the 8-bit Apple II line? Where did I
say they are not useful machines? Could you please _read_ what I
write _carefully_ before replying?

>> >*And for the last time*:  I have 4 megs of memory (and amplified
>> >speakers as well).
>>
>>     That is good to know, that makes 1/3rd of the formula towards
>> getting the most from your Apple IIgs (a hardrive and accelerator are
>> the other ingredients). A stereo card would go along well with those
>> speakers.
>
>And again, it's my machine and my setup.  Whatever else I decide to add
>in the future will be my decision--not what someone who has no use for
>Apple II 8-bit machines thinks I should have to be a "productive" or
>"power" user.

    Gee, it was nice of you to cut out the lines of text that went
below that when quoting me. In those lines I specifically said your
completely free to do as you wish with your Apple IIgs and I will
NOT disrespect or treat you any lesser. I did say I will continue
to point out errors if you state them as fact (e.g. when the GS was
introduced, 256K was enough to run native software of the time).

    Excuse me? I am someone who has no use for 8-bit Apple II's?
It just so happens I have an Apple IIc Plus equipped with LCD
display that sits on my desk, which I still run and use a couple
of times a week. Just across the room, I have an Apple IIe and
beside it, an Apple IIc. The IIe is equipped with 1.6 megabytes
of memory, a Phasor sound card, clock card, serial card, mouse
and 3.5 MHz accelerator board. I still use those too, and in
fact have been thinking about adding a Focus hardrive to that
so I can use it more productively. In case your also wondering,
I've been an Apple II user for about 15 years now and started
off with an 8-bit Apple II (which I still have in fact). I've
learned a great deal working with my first Apple, especially
since it was such an open and hands on machine (what other
machine could you pop off the lid and tinker inside? What
other system *encouraged* people to open it up and play in
there?). Even to this day I love taking apart any one of my
Apple II's and exploring its insides. :-)

Mitchell Spector
spec@vax2.concordia.ca