Re: A Tale of Two Apples

[spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector)]

In article bjblackbear@ibm.net (B.J. Major) writes...

>Mitchell Spector <spec@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
>> In article bjblackbear@ibm.net (B.J. Major) writes...
>>
>> >Naming examples of software would be meaningless to you because the
>> >titles I am referring to are developed for a particular line of business
>> >and not available to the general public.
>>
>>     Well you've just made my point, the incompatible software titles are
>> some rare and obscure business programs (furthermore, your saying they
>> were not even available to the public!). How about naming some software
>> titles the general public as access to that will not function at all?
>
>I didn't know the profession of real estate was "rare and obscure".
>These are programs that were once used by hundreds of thousands of
>offices all over the country.

    Your not making sense, you claimed this software is not available
to the general public, so I assumed you were talking about a custom
written piece of software created for a _single_ business firm made
to fit _their_ system. Now your saying it is available to hundreds of
thousands for offices? Something that widely available sounds like
software available to the general public.

>They are titles I have first hand experience and use with.

    Very well, if you have first hand experience with this software,
what exactly makes it not compatible with a moderm PC? Your being
rather vage and giving me very little information about this.

>Also, there have been other messages posted this week agreeing with
>me that not ALL old 5.25 software will run on today's machines.
>What has been your own experience will not always be everyone else's
>experience.

    I'm sure if you dig hard enough, you'll find some old poorly
written piece of software which has compatibility problems. Nothing
is 100% backwards compatible (though maybe 99% or somewhere close
to that). The Apple IIgs and Macintosh have had software break from
just simple firmware changes in ROM. When the enhanced IIe appeared
there were examples of software that broke, the same is true with
the Amiga and other sorts of computers. They are extremely close to
reaching 100% compatibility but not quite. It is a fact that Pentium
systems are backwards compatible (in both hardware and software)
with the very first 8088 PC systems. Not 100%, just like any other
system, but very, very close.

>> >Is is possible for you to respond to any message without making
>> >derrogatory statements about Macintosh???!
>>
>>     Is it possible for you not to be so offended by comments about the
>> Macintosh? It is a machine, not a person. What I said is a truth about
>> the PC in respect to the Macintosh. The Macintosh is limited in what
>> can be added to it as it is a proprietary system. The PC is not, and
>> uses generic parts. For example, if the SuperDrive in a Macintosh fails
>> and needs to be replaced you _must_ purchase the replacement part from
>> Apple Computer. On the PC, I could purchase several types of 1.44 MB
>> drives from an uncountable number of vendors and distributors.
>
>To which I say "so what?"  Anyway, my point was that you don't want
>people ragging on the IIgs; by the same token, I don't see why the Mac
>has to be ragged on.

    Nope. If someone comes trolling on this group and says "The IIgs
sucks, get a real computer like my <insert brand here>!" I will just
ignore them and think very little of that person. Though what does
tick me off is when someone comes in this group and starts posting
misinformation, claiming it is fact when it is blatantly not (even
after several people have informed them they're incorrect).

    If you want to rag about the IIgs I'm not going to get upset about
it, your entitled to your opinion about a piece of machinery. I will
correct you though if you make false technical statements about it (e.g.
256K sufficient of memory for running native Apple IIgs software). If I
saw someone make a false statement about the Macintosh, I'd probably
jump in to correct that too.

>> >You have to have a 5.25 disk drive before you can do any copying to
>> >either 3.5 disks or a hard drive.  Newer machines just don't come with
>> >the 5.25 drives.  My point stands that floppy drives for PCs are very
>> >hard to come by these days (except for used ones), as are 5.25 disks
>> >themselves.
>>
>>     Your confusing the PC market with the Macintosh.
>
>No, I'm not.  I've looked in many hardware stores lately, and no 5.25
>drives are currently for sale for use with PCs.

    That is true, most stores do not *bundle* 5.25 drives with systems.
However you have the option of asking to store to include and install
one, or if your comfortable with a screwdriver and connecting cables,
purchase one at a later date and install it yourself.

>> I will repeat it
>> again, what it ships with is _not_ what it is stuck with. Also keep
>> in mind unlike an Apple Macintosh, many people out there (myself for
>> example) don't buy pre-assembled computers. We buy the separate parts
>> and put in what we choose. That is a nice thing about not owning a
>> proprietary system.
>
>It also leads to lots of problems, of which I have first hand
>experience.  Not all no-name parts will work with each other or with the
>motherboard.  There is a generic PC in our office that will not use its
>sound card, for instance.  Both the machine and the card have been
>checked and there is nothing wrong with either.  Nonetheless, the
>computer never makes a sound or uses the card in any way.  No technician
>can explain what's wrong.  And this is not the only example of why a
>machine made up of generic parts is not the best idea in the world.

    Obviously the people in your office are very inexperienced and
lack any basic trouble-shooting skills. If the card and computer
have been tested and verified as working, then it is a simple matter
of something being misconfigured. If your interested in getting the
sound card working, mail me and I can probably help you out.

    I guess you would rather be stuck with whatever sound capabilities
Apple provided your computer with (in most cases just a simple DAC)
rather than wavetable synthesis boards you can purchase for the PC.

>>     5.25 drives are very hard to come by these days? Gee, I just looked
>> on the home page for one of my favorite local computer shops, they list
>> brand-new 5.25 drives for purchase (if you don't believe me, go have a
>> look for yourself: http://www.microbytes.com). They are also extremely
>> common to find used, both double-density and high-density, the last PC
>> Expo I visited had a box filled with them for about $5/ea, and the used
>> computer stores I've visited have shelves full of them. The are by no
>> means rare. On the other hand, when I wanted to find a SuperDrive mech
>> for my Apple IIgs, it took me about 3 months of searching and I had to
>> pay a high price just to get one used.
>
>Well, you just made *my* point.  Unless you shop used, catalog or the
>web, you won't find a PC 5.25 in any modern computer store.

    You know, I wish you would pay closer attention to what I say. This
is yet another example of you glossing over my arguments or ignorning
them completely. Re-read what I wrote above carefully.

    Walk-in stores that sells *ONLY NEW* hardware carry 5.25 drives.
I just gave you an example above. That is a large well-known computer
store chain in my area that sells computers and accessories. Go look on
their online catalog: http://www.microbytes.com/partse.html#flop (the
price is in Canadian dollars, calculate $0.60 US = $ 1CDN). I just did
a random search on Yahoo for the sake of it, here is a vendor in the
US selling them too: http://www.genesiscomp.com/floppydr.htm (you can
find hundreds of more examples if you look around).

    You just do not seem to understand. PC's are assembled from generic
parts, they are NOT pre-assembled at a factory with proprietary parts,
unless your talking about a brand-name clone, like a Compaq or IBM Ativa.
Just because you see a PC without a 5.25 on display in a store does not
mean they stopped supporting the drive or making them. Most stores will
assemble the system you buy from them, and you just _ask_ them to install
a 5.25 in there if you want one. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SEARCH FOR ONE USED.

    I don't have a 5.25 drive in my system. Let's say I want to get one
tommorrow, here is what I would have to do:

- Walk to ANY local computer shop and purchase the floppy mechanism.
- Pop the lid off my towercase and remove a plastic bay port cover.
- Slide the 5.25 drive in the empty bay, screw it in on the sides.
- Connect the MFM cable leading from my motherboard, and power cable.

..Then close it back and I'm done. No searching used computer shops
or marketplace groups on the net. No special interface cards or cables
to purchase. And no special skill or knowledge to install it.

>And comparing finding the SuperDrive for a IIgs is hardly a worthy
>comparison.  Unlike the PC 5.25, there were very few made, judging by
>the posts I've read on this group by others.

    Correction, several million were made. Every Macintosh shipped
from 1988 until sometime in 1993 had a Sony SuperDrive mechanism
installed inside the case. The reason it was difficult finding one
is you have to find someone with a dead Macintosh who can spare it
(or a rare case where you'd have two internal SuperDrives in a Mac
SE or II and they now only require one drive). Spares were also
made by Apple as dealer replacements of course. What is less common
are external SuperDrives, though they were simply the same mechanism
installed in a plastic case.

Mitchell Spector
spec@vax2.concordia.ca