Re: What was the first RPG?

[djohnson@tartarus.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)]

fletcher@u.washington.edu (Brent Michael Krupp) writes:
> >If Adventure is looked at =in it's original temporal context= one can
> >not claim that it was anything other than an RPG. Infact in it's day
> >it was the only contender.
> 
> The meaning of the term "RPG" hasn't changed since the time that Adventure
> came out. It is not an RPG. The context has nothing to do with it.

Why not?  RPG does not mean there have to be stats.  Pray tell, what
is the official definition then, if it isn't "a game that deals with
playing a role"?  Or is this a "I can't describe it, but I'll know
it when i see it"?

Note that Dungeon/Zork actually *had* character stats, just that the
player couldn't view or manipulate them.  (ooh, it had combat, does
that make it RPG?)

> Without any ability to personalize your "character" whatsoever and
> virtually no random element (the knife throwing dwarves and the pirate 
> hardly count at all) and essentially no combat system (alternately 
> banging out 'thro axe' and 'get axe' ain't a combat system), Adventure
> was, I repeat, not in any way whatsoever a role playing game.

Well, almost everyone will agree that combat is not a required element
of RPG's (I hope they do).  And probably a majority agree that
randomness is not needed.  So what we're left with is the ability to
personalize the character!  Odd - Al'Qadim doesn't let you personalize
your character, but people call that a role playing game.  What about
Doom, Dark Forces, or Marathon?  Some people think they're role
playing.  On the other hand, there are quite a few people that think
nothing from SSI is even close to being an RPG.  Is Zork Zero an RPG
with it's stats and combat, and if these elements were removed leaving
a virtually identical game, would it someone not be an RPG anymore?  I
really hope your definition includes more than just these elements.

What did Adventure give you?  You could take on the persona of the
adventurer.  Sure, you only got one choice, but many things considered
RPG's do that.  Sure, combat was limited, but if someone came out with
the My Dinner With Andre RPG, would it fail the test because of that?
Like any good RPG, it presents you with "what would you (or your
character) do in this situation?"  What about more complex and
better adventure games, such as Curses?  Is that less of an RPG than
Rogue?

And there was certainly much more role playing in Adventure than
in Temple of Apshai and Wizardry, the first games I remember that
might fit your definition.
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    "Floyd here now!"