Re: If you could design a $300 homecomputer today, what would you choose?

[David Ogg <davidogg@nc.rr.com>]

In article <3B64ED9F.A4A9B748@inebraska.com>, millers@inebraska.com 
says...
> avid Ogg wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B63844B.B6A8FDA3@inebraska.com>, millers@inebraska.com
> > says...
> > > David Ogg wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <0avtj9.ed4.ln@ridcully.freenet.co.uk>, spike1@freenet.co.uk
> > > > says...
> > > >
> > > > > David Ogg <davidogg@nc.rr.com> did eloquently scribble:
> > > > > > What would the government do to Linux if Linux had "embraced and
> > > > > > extended" or anything else Microsoft has done? I wonder. Could they do
> > > > > > anything, even?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux COUDN'T embrace and extend... Embrace and extend involves not only
> > > > > adopting and corrupting an accepted standard... It means keeping the
> > > > > additions and changes to that standard secret. (Or refusing to allow it's
> > > > > use elsewhere).
> > > >
> > > > Ok, not a good example, I'll pick another one, what if Linux integrated a
> > > > free web browser into it's interface? What if (hypothetically) this put
> > > > someone out on the street. What could the government do?
> > >
> > > Nothing. Linux is not the product of a company that has a monopoly. So none of
> > > these questions apply.
> >
> > The question was hypothetical, the situation posed in a hypothetical
> > question need not be fact. The question I asked was "what if", and it's
> > an interesting question, what if Netscape decided to become available
> > free with every linux disrobution and became the almost exclusive
> > browser? what could the government do?
> 
> And I answered your question with a real world answer. The US government, at least
> does not now have that power. The only power they have to do anything like you asked
> is only if the corporation in question is a monopoly, and is using it's monopoly power
> to extend or maintain it's monopoly.

The question (as posted in another article) had nothing to do with the 
power they now have, but what power they should have, and why.

> Since Netscape isn't a monopoly (not even being owned by AOL qualifies them for that),
> and Linux isn't the product of a monopoly, there isn't a hypothetical to ask, unless
> you first suggest that Congress passes a law that isn't even in question, and that the
> President's veto isn't overridden, and that the Supreme's say is constitutional. That
> isn't hypothetical, that's a chemical induced nightmare.  ;-)

But the question was what if they were, saying "but they're not" changes 
the question.

> > > > Should they do
> > > > anything?
> > > >
> > > > > Kerberos is the perfect example.
> > > > > They took the code from the FreeBSD codebase. As FreeBSD license allows
> > > > > anyone to do anything with the source code they want as long as there's an
> > > > > acknowledgement, they extended it and then, when someone found out what the
> > > > > extensions were and posted source code, M$ forced them to remove it from the
> > > > > web.
> > > >
> > > >  This is where that double edged sword could hurt Linux. If the
> > > > government is empowered to bitchslap developers who change protocols
> > > > to extend them,
> > >
> > > But they aren't so empowered.
> >
> > If that was the case, then "embrace and extend" would be moot anyway.
> >
> > > It's really very simple. The rules you have to play under change once you achieve
> > > monopoly status. You may not use your monopoly to maintain or extend your
> > > monopoly. So Micro$tuff is a very special case that doesn't apply to hardly any
> > > other high tech company (possible exceptions: Intel and IBM [IBM once came close
> > > to a breakup because of it's abuse of monopoly power, they backed down and played
> > > nice, something Micro$tuff doesn't seem to understand how to do])
> >
> > A monopoly means more than "most people use Microsoft." Microsoft does
> > not have a monopoly.
> 
> Monopoly does *not* mean that *everyone* uses your product. AT&T was a monopoly, even
> though there were several other competitors (GT&T, IT&T, here in eastern Nebraska
> there was LT&T, and so on), AT&T was a monopoly because they had a super majority of
> the business, and there was no way that any of the competitors could take the monopoly
> away from them.

A monopoly means the consumer has no choice. As for AT&T, I never had a 
choice. I can choose alternatives to Microsoft.
 
> Besides, your opinion doesn't count, and neither does mine. The trial court found that
> M$ *is* a monopoly, and the appeals courts sustained that decision.

LOL, we are talking about opinions here. I don't pretend that anything I 
say is going to be passed as law :)
 
> c. 90% of computer desktops does equal a monopoly.
> 
> > Even, of all people, RMS has stated that everyone
> > has a choice of what OS to use. A corporation is not a monopoly because
> > the free will of the people chose one product over another.
> >
> > Case in point: IBM, you /could not/ built an IBM PC without an IBM PC
> > BIOS, therefore IBM had complete /exclusive/ controll of the market,
> > regardless of the purchasing decisions of the consumer. This is what a
> > monopoly is.
> 
> LOL - no, not at all. Ever hear of Phoenix bios? Award Bios? Ever hear of Dell,
> Compaq, Tandy? They all made machines that were IBM compatible, and IBM long ago lost
> control of the market. How silly of you.

That proves my point, the government didn't break them up, Phoenix made 
a clean-room implementation of the BIOS, allowing machines to "truely" 
be IBM compatible. 

> IBM's monopoly was in mainframes, and even there they had competition. But they used
> their monopoly power to squeeze the competition, which is why the Feds came down on
> them. IBM settled out of court. M$ isn't that smart.
> 
> >
> >
> >  (By the way, we
> 
> We?

Sorry, have a relative wo worked in the field, was kind of used to 
hearing "we" ;)
 
> > broke that monopoly
> 
> Read the above. You don't have enough information here to debate this intelligently.

We're not debating technology, this discussion is about what benefits 
the consumer.
 
> > by reverse engineering the BIOS,
> > see? Kind of like the kerberos example. The court should do the same
> > thing they did then, allow an implementation of that functionality to
> > be duplicated.)
> >
> >  Microsoft, on the other hand, was voted to where they are now by the
> > purchasing decisions of the free willed people.
> 
> Not really. M$ makes their money on Office not Windows. And of course, not on
> Explorer. But Navigator was a threat to Widows as a platform on all OSes, and
> therefore a threat, in time to Office and M$'s monopoly.
> 
> So they cheated.
> 
> They did what was illegal for them to do at that stage.
> 
> > There are alternatives,
> 
> Oh yeah, GEOS is taking the world by storm, isn't it?

;)

I'm sure you could think of an alternative if you tried.

> How many consumer machines at Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot, Sears,
> and Walmart have Linux pre installed on them? Have you seen ANY??

I sell them. If you wanted one and can't find one I'm sure I could hook 
you up.
 
> How many machines do you see in those stores that have applications software (Works or
> Office type) that are made by a competitor of M$? Have you seen ANY?

Emachines come with StarOffice, and are sold at OfficeMax, among other 
places. We offer Corell Office 2000 in addition to MS Office 2k, along 
with StarOffice and a few others.

> > for crying out loud Microsoft has one of the hardest competitors in the
> > world to compete with, a competitor who /gives it away/ (sound
> > familliar) and has both the popular and (arguably) technological
> > advantage over them.
> 
> You don't have to have a monopoly in every niche to be a monopoly.
> And Linux hasn't won even in these fields - yet. It certainly doesn't have a monopoly
> even in those niches.

The problem is that "monopoly" is becoming too loosely a term. Microsoft 
may be guilty of unfair marketing practices, but "monopoly" they are 
not. There are choices, and the consumer can choose anything they want.

 The governments role is *not* to protect other businesses from 
microsoft, but to protect the *consumer*, and right now, the consumer 
has choice. if the government happens to do something like pull a 
product that the consumer WANTS, then the government is stepping on the 
rights of the consumer in favor of the businesses that wern't chosen by 
the consumer.
 
> > Not just in the OS market, but (especially) the
> > server, and (mostly) the webserver market. Microsoft's momentum is
> > /hardly/ increasing, and more and more options are developing every day.
> >
> > > Roy
> > >
> > > > could not this empowerment also be used to bitchslap
> > > > developers who reverse engineer protocols to be compatible?
> > > >  I think the safest ground we could stand on would be that protocols
> > > > be considered speech, and be given the same standing constitutionally.
> > > > (Posting the source code is a different story.) Let Microsoft extend
> > > > whatever they feel like, we'll be right behind them developing tools
> > > > that integrate nicely with those changes.
> > >
> > > Here's how it has worked with their "extensions", they made changes to Win 95 and
> > > Win 98 at the request of the Office programmers. Not too much wrong there. They
> > > made such changes available to the WordPerfect and Lotus Suite programmers, once
> > > those programmers learned of the existence of the changes, and then asked for the
> > > information.
> >
> >  A lot of competing companies had inside knowledge of Windows, look at
> > Adobe. Adobe knows more about the inner workings of the Windows Print
> > architecture than Microsoft. You know why? Adobe /designed/ it! The
> > public was highly skeptical about the quality of it before release, so
> > Microsoft called Adobe in and had them completely overhaul the entire
> > print archetecture. (there's actually a neat story behind this too)
> >  How about the inner workings of Microsoft Networking and the NetBEUI
> > protocol? Did you know that it was ProComm who put that there? NetBEUI,
> > Microsoft's "plug-and-play" networking protocol, was purchased from
> > them.
> >  Adobe has been successful in Windows printing, Procomm in networking.
> > Microsoft doesn't even have the edge on alot of the code they themselves
> > distribute.
> 
> Adobe isn't selling an Office suite either are they?
> Office is M$ bankroll.

Adobe competes almost squarely with Microsoft Office in many areas.

 Pagemaker -> Publisher happens to come to mind.

> By the way, how much do you hear about Novell and networking any more? A real
> powerhouse like they were in the early 90's right?

This was mentioned in another post, they dropped the ball when Win95 
came out. What happened to them was they rested on their laurels. They 
failed to create a .VXD architecture based client for Windows, 
overconfident in the believe the consumer wouldn't mind running the 
legacy .386 architecture client. The same thing happened to After Dark, 
which failed to rewrite their 16-bit code. This was not Microsofts 
fault.

> And M$ often buys technology, that's not news. Nor does it have anything to do with
> their having a monopoly in Office Suite or on Desktops.

But it does have to do with the misconception that they have "inside 
knowledge," when there are many people with inside knowledge to the 
Windows OS. 
 
> Did you notice what happened to Stacker? Or After Dark? Products that aren't sold, in
> part, because M$ bought such technology and incorporated into their software, so
> consumers didn't need to buy and so didn't buy such products.

Stacker was a dangerous product, as is any disk compression that is 
filesystem based. They became irrelevant because HDD's became cheap. I 
don't even USE compression on my drives, do you? After Dark was a legacy 
application that insisted the consumer should be satisfied with a 16 bit 
application in their 32 bit OS.
 
> See, that's a real problem. If you get M$ Office for free, why would you buy
> WordPerfect? If you get a screen saver for free, why buy After Dark? If you get a
> browser for free, why buy one?

So the government should side with the small businesses over the 
consumer? By that logic I suppose the government should ban TV news to 
protect the newspapers which you must purchase.

Anyway *NOONE* gets MS Office for free, you might recieve it bundled 
with a computer. but it's included in the price of the computer, it's 
NOT free.

You don't think someone will buy a product just because they have one 
that's free already? Why would anyone buy Windows then? Or the 
newsreader I'm using now when I already have the MS one? When there is a 
BETTER product, people will buy it.

This decision is best left to the consumer.
 
> And when such actions are done by a monopolistic company, it's illegal.
> 
> Roy
> 
> >
> >
> > > Do you see the difference? In house products teams had weeks, if not months lead
> > > time so their products were out first, and had a much closer working relationship
> > > with the Systems programmers than ANY competitor could possibly have. That
> > > allowed the Office products to maintain and extend their lead over their major
> > > competitors. American law prohibits that as unfair when done by a monopolist.
> >
> > But the fact that others were developing and releasing competing
> > products, and making money doing it, precludes Microsoft from being a
> > monopoly at that point in time. If you remember, Lotus was very
> > successful. In the end we mostly moved to MS Office because we liked the
> > product better, if we didn't we, to this day, still have the choice of
> > using other products. StarOffice comes to mind as an excellent
> > alternative (I can't stand the interface though)
> >
> > > The kicker is that Micro$tuff is STILL denying that they have a monopoly. I
> > > suppose they would only acknowledge it when/if they achieve their wet dream of
> > > all computers everywhere using M$ OS.
> >
> > I deny it too. I have plenty of options. I'll deny it untill there arn't
> > any options. Then it will be a /monopoly/. A monopoly means NO options.
> > Like Bell telephone, IBM making the only machines with an IBM BIOS.
> > OPEC. Let's face it, it was Darwinism that built Microsoft, it's
> > Darwinism that will bring it down, and it can and /is/ happening.
> >
> > > > Both these practices should
> > > > be protected, as attacking one hurts the other.
> > > >  This way, any percieved improvements are realized by consumers,
> > > > regardless what product they choose, and competition is still occuring,
> > > > with the consumer benefitting from the race. That /is/ the only thing
> > > > the government is supposed to be concerned with in a monopoly case
> > > > anyway.
> > > >  Consumers do not benefit in any way by having the government soft-
> > > > enforcing a protocol tweeking taboo.
> > > >
> > > >  If you look closely at what's happening to GUI's right now, Microsoft
> > > > /is/ competing, everyone is. Apple is making drastic changes in it's UI,
> > >
> > > On yeah, and how much has their market share gone up?
> >
> >  Not relevant. It certainly can't be because of Microsoft Office,
> > because Office on the Mac is better and more stable than Office on the
> > PC (from what I've heard). This is (from "what I hear") typical, I hear
> > Photoshop and alot of other apps that exist on both Windows and Mac are
> > better on the Mac. This tends to put a few holes in the theory that
> > Microsoft giving inside Windows OS info to Office developers made
> > windows more popular, because that Windows OS Office is supposedly
> > inferior to the MacOS Office, regarless of "inside knowledge"
> >  And the kicker is, You can have all the inside knowledge of the MacOS
> > you want now, at least the "Darwin OS" parts because it's OpenSource. So
> > according to the inside knowledge leads to market monopolization theory
> > posed, the Mac should be cleaning up, right? So how much /has/ there
> > market share gone up?
> >
> > > > Linux is also,
> > >
> > > Big market share their too. Esp in Best Buy, Sears, and Walmart computer depts.
> > >
> > > > and Microsoft is changing the GUI at a faster rate than
> > > > they have ever done anything before. This race they're having is picking
> > > > up speed and the consumer is benefitting on all fronts. And this is how
> > > > it should be.
> > >
> > > Ah, but what happened to DRI?
> > > How often do you see the Lotus Office Suite (assuming IBM didn't finally throw in
> > > the towel) bundled with a computer? Or the WordPerfect suite? How much shelf
> > > space do they get at the Best Buy, Office Max, Office Depot, Circuit City,
> > > compared to M$??
> >
> > About the same amount as the customers ask for them. Shelf space does
> > not a monopoly make, When I decide what to stock, it's based on demand,
> > and customer demand is the free will of the people, nothing more.
> >
> > > >  What we don't need right now is Big Brother stopping this race, so that
> > > > Linux and Mac might slow down,
> > >
> > > You won't. Big Brother might slow down M$, but not competitors with less than 10%
> > > of the market place. In a case like this, Big Brother's job is to make sure that
> > > the race is fair to the little guys.
> >
> > And what have the "little guys" been doing? Generally nothing untill
> > Microsoft develops something they need to compete with. There's been a
> > lot of companies resting on their laurels untill they /have/ to improve
> > something because Microsoft is killing them. Don't believe me? let's
> > take a closer look...
> >
> >  PalmOS, who swore up and down consumers don't need color. fine everyone
> > settles for b&w, and Palm own3Z the market. WinCE comes along, and Palm
> > responds with the new color models, but by now they're already losing
> > market share daily, and the palm VII I *just bought* is now on fire sale
> > as best buy for half the price I paid a few months ago for it.
> >
> >  Novell, once prime master of the universe in networking, decided it
> > didn't want to make a VXD implementation of Novell client for Microsoft
> > right away, they decided their legacy .386-file architecture was all
> > anyone needed. Microsoft, who at first didn't even install networking
> > protocols in win95 by default, and even included a limited novell
> > client, responded to the delay imposed by novell by incorporating
> > NetBEUI (mentioned above) as a stop-gap measure untill novell woke up
> > to consumer demand. Too late. novell is now largely irrelevant.
> >
> >  OS/2, an Operating system more object oriented than Windows is /to this
> > day/ practically abandoned by it's creators even though people are
> > practically begging them not to discontinue it. It's still a staple in
> > most banks and runs a majority of the ATM machines out there. IBM has
> > publically stated they don't plan on supporting this OS.
> >
> >  BEOS, a very capable OS, but one that it's creators have no interest in
> > persueing, deciding they want the embedded market, despite a loyal
> > following of users and tinkerers. Heck, by the time I even discovered
> > BEOS, they had already abandoned it!
> >
> >  On the other hand, there are very good developers out there that make a
> > killing competing against Microsoft because they are /good at it/ and
> > the consumer /prefers to use them./ Adobe is a prime example here, as
> > are Macromedia, Citrix, Borland, Sun, AOL, Symantec, Peachtree, Intuit,
> > and many others. They have prospered because we vote for them with our
> > patronage when we choose them over Microsoft. They have responded to the
> > demands placed upon them by the consumer, faster or better than
> > Microsoft has, and thus prospered. This is how it oughta be.
> >
> >  Some people may feel sympathetic to Netscape, but the fact was they
> > were charging money for a product that could have taken on microsoft and
> > won, but they decided they preferred to be Adware instead. they could
> > have improved their product, but they decided to open a portal during
> > the portal craze and rest on the portal, and their laurels. If Microsoft
> > didn't do it, someone else would have.
> >
> >  that's the thing in a free market, you live with the fear that someone
> > will be faster, better or cheaper than you are. You adapt, or you win
> > the Darwin award.
> >
> >  Anyway, back to your original comment, the government's job is *NOT* to
> > make the race fair to the little guys. the goverments job is to make the
> > race fair and beneficial to the *consumer*, even if it means the "little
> > guy" goes out of business. the government has the power to grant
> > monopolies for this purpose so long as it benefit's the consumer.
> >
> >  But again, Microsoft is where they are because we put them there, and
> > it's in our best interest to let them compete.
> >
> > >
> > > Roy
> > >
> > > > and then we lose because competition has
> > > > stopped again. Besides, it's getting interesting ;)
> > > >
> > > > --David
> > >
> > >
> 
>