Re: OMG!

[Roy and/or Janet Miller <millers@inetnebr.com>]

My, my, I wasn't even addressing you. There's an old saying, "Throw a stone into
a pack of dogs, and you'll know which one was hit." From the yelping, I'd say it
was Kelli.

Kelli Halliburton wrote:

> > I get the picture. You aren't willing to pay for your play. So long as it
> costs
> > you nothing but time (and your time must really be cheap) you'll take
> whatever
> > you can get. You'll steal because you WON'T pay. And you killfile those
> who
> > point out your lack of morals because it offends your seared conscience.
> You
> > applaud those who give you want you want, and don't want to be paid for
> it, and
> > you sneer at those who are willing to give back to those who give to them.
> > There's a word for beings like you Paul - parasite.
>
> People have made similar comments about me, based on my earlier posts to
> this thread.
>
> You know what? I DON'T HAVE ANY software for my three Apple IIgs systems.

Most of what I have, I got from thrift shops, eBay, and the local Apple computer
club.

>
> Know why? Because I don't want to jump through flaming hoops to get it.

I never tried that - does it help in buying software?

>
> Figuring out how to download stuff and get it transferred to one of my
> systems is not "beyond" me, but it's more trouble than I want to go to for
> the sake of nostalgia.

If nostalgia is all it is to you, then fine. But it isn't just nostalgia to
others. For some, it's still their primary machine (granted there aren't many
like that) for some, it's a hobby (that's me) and people spend money on their
hobbies (like basswood, new knives, and stitches in my hand for my woodcarving -
or new pattern books for my wife's cross-stitch), for some, they wish to learn
to program or do hardware projects on a system that's simple enough that you
don't need a team of 25 engineers to get a job done. No doubt there are other
reasons. And some will spend some money, some a lot, and some little or none.
Just don't assume that your motives and interests are the same as everyone
else's. Oh - BTW. We have a fairly affluent school district here, lots of Macs
and Wintel machines. But a couple of months ago, my Webelos Cub Scouts were to
meet at their school, and guess what I saw in most classrooms? Apple //e, Apple
IIgs, and Apple II+ machines, with ImageWriter IIs. Now, if you were a school
teacher in that school, you just might still be interested in using those
machines that you have, rather than the ones you don't have, wouldn't you?

>
>
> If I could go to the corner software store and buy boxed software at what
> *I* consider to be a *reasonable* price, I would.

And what office suite do you use on your Wintel or Mac? How much did you pay for
it? What games have you bought lately? And your latest machine - how much did it
cost? Did you have to pay to upgrade your OS?

> That would be much much
> easier than the ministrations I would have to perform in order to transfer
> downloaded software, pirated or legitimate.
>
> But I also recognize that what I consider to be a reasonable price
> (AppleWorksGS for $5,

I believe you can get it for $10.

> GS/OS for $20 [I know it's a free download -- but it's
> a download],

And what's the price for GS/OS from A2Central?

> SIS for $20)

Well, I'd like to upgrade my ProTerm 3.0 to 3.1, but it will cost more than
getting Spectrum!

> may not be what someone else considers a
> reasonable price, nor would it likely be a price that anyone could
> successfully make money with.

Ken Howe's browser isn't finished, but it's free....

>
>
> So, yes, I'm lazy, and I'm cheap, and I am also not so blinded by nostalgia
> and obsession

That's twice. I'm not blinded by nostalgia, and (despite my wife's opinion) I'm
not obsessed, and many others aren't either.

> to see that no matter what you can actually get it to do in
> 2001, the Apple II series' time in the sun has passed.

Not true. It's time as a currently marketed machine has passed yes, but there's
still a lot of life left in the ol' hoss. And if I can find a 1971 VW Bus....

> One could say the sun
> is not rising on the A2, but setting -- but I would go one step farther and
> say that it has already set.

That's your opinion. And if you feel like that, then what do you care about the
II anyway?

>
>
> I keep an interest in A2, C64, TRS-80, CP/M... but I harbor no illusions
> about the state of these systems. They're all fine machines, and they were
> all great in their time. Their time has passed.

Not too long ago, there was a vastly upgraded CPU and operating system for CP/M
- and some still write new software for that venerable OS. Ditto for the others
that you mentioned.

>
>
> Joe Kohn, I love that you can still make a living at selling Spectrum and
> SIS. Allelec, I think it's fantastic that you still sell hardware upgrades
> for the A2. But neither of you believes that this state of affairs can
> continue indefinitely, right?

What's it to you what they believe?

> I know Allelec sells more than just A2
> hardware. Joe, what's your contingency plan?

Again, what's it to you? It's none of you business (or mine for that matter.)

> When the revenue statements
> start sliding downward past the point of profitability, then past the
> break-even point, what are you going to do? If you don't have a plan, get
> one.

This sounds like, "Please stop making money, you're ruining my argument."
<Snicker>

>
>
> In two years the II will be 25 years old (1978, right?), and the IIgs will
> have not been sold for 10 years (last sold in 1993, right?). Is it really
> realistic to continue trying to charge people to support a platform that is
> that old?

As long as you are selling something that people want to buy it is.

>
>
> I'm not trying to talk the market down.

LOL - but you just did!

> I'd love for someone to find a huge
> stash of shrinkwrapped NOS (new-old-stock) IIgs systems that had been
> forgotten in a warehouse somewhere, and be able to sell NEW IIgs systems.

Why? The sun has set. This are still OLD machines. They have no useful function
in your opinion. Obviously a logical consistency isn't important to you.

> Id
> love for hardware development to continue.

Why? That's silly. There is no market. There is no interest. No one will pay for
it, no one will want it. According to you.

> The ideas about the 65832 and the
> new motherboard design and the efforts to adapt the II platform to modern
> technology -- I hope these ideas see realization and sell

SELL????  SELL??? And who will BUY?? You have already said you won't! Paul won't
pay for anything. You know who will buy? The people who are keeping Joe and
Alltech going in the Apple II business.

> and make their
> designers some well-earned money. But it's not happening, from what I can
> see. All I see happening right now is **** ****'s work on the II ethernet
> card, to compete with the LANceGS,

And the LANceGS just came out a year or so ago. Focus cards are still being
sold. Spectrum is still being upgraded, Kim Howe is still releasing projects.
Others are doing the same. Stephane has just announced an IDE project for the
II.  You obviously don't see all that is happening. Not enough for some of us,
but still the II lives.

> but fit and work in any II. If this
> design is well finished, it deserves to be a great seller

John is giving the design away. Is it finished yet John?

> for anyone who
> still has a need or desire to put their II on the net.
>
> I'd love for the market to be self-sustaining. But... is it? Can any of you
> really say that the commercial Apple II hardware and software market is
> self-sustaining?

Sigh - Joe is making a living at it. Others are making part of their living from
it. What's it to you if they do or don't? Why should you be so offended that
there is a market, however small? Why are you so ticked that Joe says he's
making (for the moment) a living from what he's doing? Is it because he still is
charging what *he* considers a fair price and *you* don't?

> Can you say that you *know* that it would be
> self-sustaining, if only abandoned software were made unavailable and people
> had to pay for new development?

Can you know that it wouldn't? Besides, you are missing the same point that Paul
did - there is also a used hard/software market. And the availability of
"abandoned" software might very well be suppressing the value of the used
software. MIGHT. I'm not sure that it does. But it might be.

> If hardware developers didn't have to absorb
> their R&D costs and only charge for parts when they sell their hardware?
>
> Quantum Cat, even you are not so rabid and frothing at the mouth to see the
> light of day. "Fuck off, Kelli," indeed.

That sentence didn't make any sense at all.

>
>
> Get over your damned selves. I won't say "nobody cares." I will say "not
> enough people care to pay, to make it worth your while to charge." Joe Kohn
> and SSI notwithstanding.

LOL. Oh my. Facts are often a hindrance to a philosophical argument, aren't they
Kelli? The fact that Joe is selling enough stuff to stay in business ruins your
sloppily crafted argument, and that really is sticking in your craw isn't it?
The fact that Alltech makes enough money selling Apple II stuff to still stay in
that line seems to offend you as well. Heaven forbid that someone else release a
program that has the hundreds (thousands?) of II users demanding to buy it for
$10 or $20 a copy, that would really ruin your day wouldn't it?

I suppose you should tell the NewDesk people that they should go out of business
because they released a multitasking internet suite, with graphical web browser,
IRC client, email, web page design package, that works on a 286, shouldn't you?
After all, who would want to use an 286 or 386 machine today? Why, those get
thrown into landfills all the time. And yet, NewDesk sells software that does
not just that, but a number of other tasks, and well, and for reasonable prices
too. Just not at prices like you would like to have. Prices more in line with
the prices that Joe has the arrogance to charge. And you and Paul won't pay.

Roy