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CSA2, Delphi and all matters presented for civil solutions!

Subject: CSA2, Delphi and all matters presented for civil solutions!
From: cturley2@aol.com (Cturley2)
Date: 1998/09/02
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Here's a classical example of what I'd label a serious need to call a halt to
the bickering and all that relates to A2-Delphi - vs - CSA2. Both places
should (IMHO) respect each others views without having to completely turn their
backs on each others useful offerings to the entire A2 community, it's needs
and desire for information of useful value to them. Freedom of speech,
information on subjects of public concern, interest and value, opened
expression and civil discussions to settle issues under debate need to be
presented, without the call for ending them or using censorship to supress
their contents and concern. So, I'm presenting a rather long and exact fair
quote from a past messageboard post on the A2-Delphi forum from many well know
and respected developers, A2-delphi staff, members, A2 ftp site host and A2
users, that I think gives a very good profile of serious problems deserving
every A2 users attention, response to and
discussion, to find a valid solution to resolve such matters for the good of
the entire A2 community, here, on Delphi's A2 forum and everywhere else on the
Internet that Apple II users frequent to find their needs.

Please read the following - reframe from any hostile comments, flamewar
baitings or such and try to make your comments, suggestions for a solution for
these problems under consideration, with a civil and adult response only
PLEASE. These feelings, issues and problems must be resolved for the general
well-being and productive future of the Apple II community as a whole.

After reading the following quotes, they upset me a great deal and make me
seriously wonder what's to become of the A2 community and all of its users real
needs, as a whole in the future. If it all continues with these feelings of
hate, information isolation and withdrawing from facing the issues and
resolving them for the best interest of all A2 users all over the world,
(rather than for just a select few) then I don't see to much of a productive
future in many respects for any of it at all.

So, the following comes from A2-Delphi - for all A2 users that read it to
comment on, discussion and I'm posting it all here in the hope it will provide
some sort of a unified solution to it all - before it's to late to try.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: TCP/IP NDA website?
BeginningMessage 14908PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(RICHARD_B)To:ï¿½ï¿½Carl K (CKNOBLO)18
of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 10:16 AMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14872NextWell, yes I'm working
on Marinetti 2.0 at the moment, and as Carl says, probably the end of
September (I'm busy job hunting at the moment).
Marinetti 1.1 and 2.0 are basically the same thing. In fact if a certain
person hadn't accidentally (yeah, it was an accident, I understand they
happen every now and again :) posted about it, nobody would have been
confused about the version number. That's
ï¿½why we do secret development, so that rumours and fiction don't get
started.

As with most Apple II software these does, it will be done when its
done, and here on Delphi you'll hear about it first, the Marinetti home
page second, and csa2 hopefully never. :-)

Regards,
ï¿½Richard
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14913PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½Sheppy (SHEPPY)To:ï¿½ï¿½(RICHARD_B)19
of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 11:22 AMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14908Next> and csa2 hopefully
never

Gosh, Richard, tell us what you *really* think! :)

Eric "Sheppy" Shepherd
Macintosh & PowerPC Programmers Forum
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14916PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½SteveN (SNELSON49)To:ï¿½ï¿½(RICHARD_B
)20 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 12:43 PMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14908NextI understand how
Richard and Eric feel about
csa2. But ... CSA2 will (wrongly) be seen
as anti-sympathetic to developers as long as
developers shun csa2. Somewhere a truce must
be written. If developers want respect on csa2
they must show respect for csa2 readers, and
vice-versa. This feuding must stop! It is
senseless and counter-productive. The word
"juvenile" comes to mind, but we are mostly
adults here, right?

Several developers maintain a presence on csa2
and are well respected and admired because of
that. More developers are welcome to become
visible and active participants on that public
venue.

--Steve
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14925PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(BARRY_REES)To:ï¿½ï¿½SteveN (
SNELSON49)21 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 3:25 PMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14916Next<<
Somewhere a truce must be written.

Why? It's a lose-lose situation.

Barry Rees
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14930PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½Sheppy (SHEPPY)To:ï¿½ï¿½SteveN (
SNELSON49)22 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 6:17 PMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14916NextYeah, the
word "juvenile" does come to mind, and when the juveniles stop making
fools of themselves on csa2, I'll go back.

But so far, every time I've tried to return to csa2, I've immediately
been attacked as participating in one horrible scam against the Apple II
world or another (the Wolf 3D thing in February/March alone is enough to
make me swear off csa2 forever). I had a long talk with several of the
folks at KFest about this and they now have some idea just how much that
upset me.

Anyone that thinks I'll go back to csa2 again after that incident is
nuts.

And at this point I suggest this conversation be allowed to quietly end,
before someone has to tell us to stop talking about it.

Eric "Sheppy" Shepherd
Macintosh & PowerPC Programmers Forum
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14935PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(RICHARD_B)To:ï¿½ï¿½SteveN (SNELSON49
)23 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 9:05 PMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14916NextI've given csa2 more
than enough chances, Steve Nelson.

End of thread in my opinion.
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14938PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(JUICEDGS)To:ï¿½ï¿½SteveN (SNELSON49)
24 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/6/98 10:32 PMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14916NextIn message 'RE:
TCP/IP NDA website? (Re: Msg 14908)' SNELSON49 said:

> I understand how Richard and Eric feel about csa2. But ... CSA2 will
> (wrongly) be seen as anti-sympathetic to developers as long as
developers
> shun csa2. Somewhere a truce must be written. If developers want
respect
> on csa2 they must show respect for csa2 readers, and vice-versa. This
> feuding must stop! It is senseless and counter-productive.
Steve,
I pretty much agree with your basic sentiment, although I think we could
get into a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" debate over why
this
feud exists. :-)
I don't think the csa2 readership as a whole is anti-developer, but some
of the dominant posters, primarily Jeff Hurlburt (aka Rubywand, SiFan,
etc.) do express a distinctive and persistent attitude of disdain toward
"some" developers. Witness the outrageous way Sheppy was treated by
Hurlburt after Wolf 3D was released last February. It was uncalled for
and, IMHO, destructive to the Apple II community as a whole. Those who
defended Sheppy were likewise treated rudely. It was, overall, a
tremendously distasteful experience and I don't blame him one bit for
swearing off csa2 forever.
Steve, your work with the Ground Apple II archive gives you leadership
standing in csa2, so I would encourage you to urge some of the csa2'ers
who participate in this "feud" to cool it as well. When you get the
opportunity, express the same feelings over there that you did here.
When
you see a csa2'er sniping at developers, as Rubywand was doing no more
than 2 days ago, speak up and call their hand! As you point out, it
=does=
go both ways.
I know Sheppy suggested we drop this discussion. He may be right. But I
do
think a civil discussion about this topic is needed, and I am willing to
do my part to help things along.
Max Jones, Juiced.GS
http://www.wbwip.com/juiced.gs
Delivered by Spectrum 2.1 and Crock O' Gold 2.5
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14961PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(CHUNK_S)To:ï¿½ï¿½Sheppy (SHEPPY)25
of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/8/98 12:42 AMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14930NextIn message 'RE: TCP/IP
NDA website? (Re: Msg 14916)' SHEPPY said:

> And at this point I suggest this conversation be allowed to quietly
end,
> before someone has to tell us to stop talking about it.
Thank you, Sheppy. I heartily agree.
CHunk -- Your A2 Forum Host
... Message delivered by Spectrum 2.1
... and rushed to you by Crock O' Gold 2.5!
Remember StarTrek: Don't Feed The Energy Beast
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14962PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½(CHUNK_S)To:ï¿½ï¿½(RICHARD_B)26 of 27
Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/8/98 12:42 AMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14935NextIn message 'RE: TCP/IP NDA
website? (Re: Msg 14916)' RICHARD_B said:

> End of thread in my opinion.
Sounds like a good suggestion, Richard. :)
CHunk -- Your A2 Forum Host
... Message delivered by Spectrum 2.1
... and rushed to you by Crock O' Gold 2.5!
Remember StarTrek: Don't Feed The Energy Beast
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½
Top of PageMessage 14975PreviousFrom:ï¿½ï¿½tom larson (LYSERGIC1)To:ï¿½ï¿½(
CHUNK_S)27 of 27Posted:ï¿½ï¿½8/9/98 3:16 AMReply to:ï¿½ï¿½14962ï¿½Richard wrote:
>>
>> End of thread in my opinion.

>Sounds like a good suggestion, Richard. :)
>
>CHunk -- Your A2 Forum Host

The problem with this attitude is that it is counterproductive
to the health of the platform.

I can see Richard's point, but it's really only a handful of
people who are acting like morons. Guess what? The world is
full of morons. It's also full of interesting people with
worthwhile things to contribute. Some of them hang out on (or
at least read) csa2.

One of the benefits to usenet (and probably Delphi OMRs) is
that most newsreaders have a filtering option. You NEVER have
to read anything by someone you don't like, or ANY topic that
you don't want to.

I realize that Chuck was kind of calling for an end to posts
on this topic, but hopefully it can continue for a few
ï¿½ï¿½Replyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Forwardï¿½ï¿½

------------------------------------------------------------------------
ï¿½<<<ï¿½1-17ï¿½18-27

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, there you have it - just as I read it - all of it. What's to be done to
solve these
issues and problems for the best interest of all A2 users everywhere?

Sincerely,
Tom

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