Re: irc -appleiigs

[Toby Reiter <str4552@OBERLIN.EDU>]

In his post on 4 Dec 1996, David (I love Eunuchs) Young :

> Toby Reiter (str4552@OBERLIN.EDU) wrote:
> : How about #unixmasturbation? Really, a name of a channel should fit its 
> : content. #appleiigs should be a place where people can discuss hardware, 
> : software, and other aspects of using an Apple IIgs or Apple II computer.  
> 
> Says who? You? Who died and made you Helen Rose? A channel is a collection
> of users. Names are immaterial.


Bullshit! Nathan Mates and others are constantly giving people crap for 
coming into c.s.a2 and posting mac questions. Doesn't it seem 
hypocritical that #appleiigs attacks people who ask Apple II questions?
 
David continues:

> I stated: 
> : It doesn't matter how apathetic you as individuals or as a group are--the 
> : main responsibility of anyone in irc #appleiigs is to keep the topic on 
> : track.  
> 
> Again, who are you to dictate what my or anyone else's responsibilities
> are? Do you pay for IRC? Do you own the cables across which the bits
> travel? Like, no.

I get my mandate from an overwhelming sentiment in the Apple II community 
that we need to support the forums for discussion of this platform and 
welcome new users with friendly and helpful advice. (I assume I have 
back-up on this, right folks?)
 
Dave (in the greatest oversimplification of the century):
> I admitted:
> : Granted, my experience on the Apple IIgs, irc, or UNIX is extremely 
> : limited, and I would love to learn more about all three of these subjects 
> : (well, maybe I'm not _that_ interested in irc.) How can I expect to learn 
> : more about the IIgs when the only free real-time discussion group doesn't 
> : even address the topic of its namesake?
> 
> Easy. Consult one of the driveloads worth of information about the GS's
> hardware, software, operating system, whatever through another medium.

Often times, this material is too complex for the intermediate Apple II 
user to understand fully. In addition, real-time chat on the Apple II (in 
my experience) has been an excellent way to learn about topics that I 
never would have looked into if I had not heard in a discussion. They 
also offer excellent opportunities to imagine and plan what can be done
in the future. I doubt many of the Apple II technologies we have available 
today would have been created without this creative force.

David says the only slightly sensible sentence in his post:
> You're free to try a questions on us, and we'll probably answer if it
> seems like you have a base working knowledge from which we can explain
> things. However, we're not a damn university here to instruct you on the
> finer points of IIgs technicals.

Sure, except that you should be willing to work off the other person's 
base knowledge. The problem with #appleiigs is not that you guys have to 
keep answering people's annoying questions, but instead that you scare, 
either intentionally or not, many people who could come into the channel 
and help create a community of new users and old-time (read at or above 
your level) users.  You wouldn't have to worry about answering "annoying" 
questions, and we wouldn't have to worry about your elitist attitudes. 

And David begins to sound scared:

> As I point out an overriding theme: 
> : One thing I had noticed about some of the names I remember from #appleiigs 
> : is that they were Objectivists.  Now, I don't mean to imply anything about 
> : Ayn Rand, but it seems to me that Objectivists on the whole--because they 
> : embrace an idealogy in which self-interest is glorified and in which all 
> : interactions between humans are seen as the result of self-service--tend to 
> : not be sympathetic to the conditions of others.  They tend to accept "Get a 
> : life!", "You're and idiot!" and "Why didn't you read the f**king Technical 
> : Manual?" as logical appropriate statements. 
> 
> One of the things I remember reading about people who want to share stuff
> all the time is that they're a bunch of pinkos. I think I saw it in MAD
> Magazine, or maybe it was Cracked. I don't mean to imply anything about
> Trotzky, but it seems to me that Reds on the whole -- because they eat a
> lot of Borscht -- get the runs a lot. They tend to run out into the snow,
> to the outhouse, and freeze their Babuschkas off in the process.

Hmmm, last time I checked, helping others meant you would be well 
respected and would be helped later in return (I am only nineteen, but I 
have ample experience to tell me this true). Not helping others meant that 
you were an asshole.

As I get charitable, David get crotchety:
> : I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that it is my duty to help 
> : others, not their privilege that I do so.
> 
> That's real nice. Can you? You admit yourself you don't know much about
> the GS, UNIX, or anything. It's always funny how those without any ability
> seem to think that it's something that should be freely given away. The
> deal is, they think it's something that should be freely given away -- to
> them.

Did I say I knew nothing about the GS? I said that I didn't know a lot 
about the GS. However, I know a lot about what is available in terms of 
hardware and software, know where and how to get files, standard methods 
for transferring files, and a general knowledge of Apple II history.  All 
of these surround the majority of the questions which are asked in 
comp.sys.apple2 everyday, and I often write personal email or posts for 
those who I can help in some way.

Just so we finally know who's actually clueless:
> Toby Reiter admitting that his post has been a bit harsh:
>
> : I know that this posting may seem a bit pointed, rude, and 
> : over-generalized, but I truly feel that this has become a problem in the 
> : Apple II world. 
> 
> Not just the Apple II world. Cluelessness in general is on the rise. Read
> _The Dilbert Principle_, and then see the two hair-horns of shame on your
> own head.

I wasn't talking about people coming into the computer world without 
knowledge. I was talking about boneheaded computer nerds who excluded and 
alienated all those users who could possibly lead to a) an improvement in 
the Apple II platform, or money in their pockets (if they ever program 
software to the Apple II).

> : More and more, the people who are beginning to use 
> : computers are less aware of how to use them, because of the shift of the 
> : computer from "nerd toy" to "necessary commodity". 
> 
> Case in point: you.

No, I'm actually definitely a computer nerd. I use computers for many 
uses for up to 3-6 hours a day. I am taking two computer science courses 
this semester (first semester freshman year) as a non-Computer Science 
major.  I have always loved using computers, and know my way very well 
around II's and Macs (the computers which I have used in general since I was 
about 10.) 

David spouts out more nonsense:

> I stated:
>
> : It is imperative, therefore, that we understand, both on an intellectual
> : and emotional level, the problems people are having with their computers.
> 
> My problem with my computer is that he always leaves the toilet seat up.
> Man, is that annoying. I think we're headed for divorce.

You don't know it yet, but computer have already had their effect on you. 
The monitor emits ions which have been proven to cause depression.  Seems 
to me like you could definitely use a few months of vacation from 
anything remotely electrical.

> [snip. I'm really glad they made the Children's Aid Society too, Toby]

Hmmmmm, what do they do? Maybe I'll contribute this year!

I look at people like you and think "Boy I hope there's a God."

Lookin' forward to sendin' ya email in hell!

Toby Reiter

p.s. Just in case anybody was about to brand me a Fundamental Christian: 
I'm Jewish, think Homosexuality is natural, approve of abortion and 
euthanasia. Eat your heart out Objectivist freaks!