Re: If you could design a $300 homecomputer today, what would you choose?

[David Ogg <davidogg@nc.rr.com>]

In article <tlpsk6fkn0qj16@corp.supernews.com>, tthai@mindspring.com 
says...

> The x86 is nasty that way... its *backward* compatible that to make something 100%
> x86 compatible take a huge effort. (I also admire AMD for this... and in turn Transmeta)

Heck, even Intel had a hell of a time with the transition from 486 to 
pentium(p54c/p55c-mmx), they said there were something like 14 debugging
registers that were "left out" and caused a few problems, some quazi-ops 
were dropped, and they had to abort those plans to support those 
486"upgradeable" boards with the extra pins that were pentium ready.
(a small price to pay for feature-creep though)

At least the x86 legacy stuff does have an end in sight though, the 
64bit CPU's won't be encumbered the way x86 was.

> I'm not sure their is a market... but if their was, AMD could also make their processor
> emulator friendly by adding so facilities to it.?

They could I suppose, but being the Athlon would do the abstraction at a 
higher level, I don't know how much more effective it would be. (In a 
desktop where you have watts to burn however, its a different story)

> If it will run on batery forget what I said.... I'm intetrested in the 
> strongarm, possibly crusoe native?
> The second part here is compiler technologie.
> 
> I use to have a PB1000, a programable 'calculator'. Nothing like a TI...
> it was really like a small 8bit
> computer... But it died. and if I could find a <300$ replacemtn I would 
> jump on it.

I miss the simplicity of the 8-bits, I held on to my Vic-20 for years 
using it as a hardware controller for EPROM burners and whatnot. One 
side of the room I burned them, and the other had UV lights to erase 
them (remember those?;) My neighbors must have thought I was growing 
pot.
 What was so magical about our first 8bit computers that made virtually
everyone who owned them learn to program them, as opposed to today, 
where people are so cynical about their machines? We used to "Love" our 
computers in a way that won't happen again, it seems. Gosh, did I say 
that? I sound like an old fart ;)

> >  The reason I see Crusoe as a good match for a project like this is that
> > it sort of combines a dozen or so pre-existing niche markets into one
> > market that could be sold the same hardware. There's already a market
> > for a low-power webpad, and people are willing to pay $2300 for them
> > (check out Slashdot's submissions for saturday) there's already a market
> > for PDA's, and Crusoe is faster than anything in most PDA's right now.
> > portable units for inventory and UPS/shipping are already being sold,
> > for anywhere between $400-$1000.
> 
> How about the StrongArm? isn't it lower power and pack a nice punch?
> For those device you dont really need code morphing unless you dont have the
> right compiler tools.

I'm totally in the dark when it comes to the StrongArm, I know it's made 
by IBM and I hear they have a loyal following in Europe. That about sums
it up as for my knowledge there ;)

> > > What codec did Linus code nativly for the crusoe?!!?!?
> > > Do you have a link on what is in a Tivo box?
> >
> > http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html
> >
> > They released their power-PC linux mods as per the GPL.
> > Since the mods were developed by TiVo themselves, they already have the
> > codec source, all they would need to do is recompile for Linus's
> > "Transmeta distrobution" (maybe not even).
> 
> My original comment was about stuff outside the OS. For example software video codec.
> You need those to run native to get realtime, usually assemby codec. So you need to man
> power to get an mpeg2 decoder (encoder)...

Actually I'm not sure if Tivo uses software or hardware mpeg, but 
between Tivo and Transmeta, I'm sure they could whip something up.

> > If Transmeta releases a PowerPC codemorphing layer (or someone makes
> > one) they wont even need to do that. This would probably interest TiVo
> > greatly, as they already stated they wish to make their money from
> > selling the subscription, not the hardware.
> 
> I would imagine the best for them would be to reuse common PC parts?
> Maybe a basic microATX MB modifyed a bit with a custom bios?

Or even a retrofitted Sony laptop motherboard maybe (gawd I hate laptop
hardware though ;) microATX would be good, with video/sound onboard, 
maybe using laptop IDE hard disks, External 'wallwort' powersupply, 
internal battery.

> > > > The beauty is, if code isn't available, as long as you can produce the
> > > > codemorphing layer, you just reuse your existing code! Case in point,
> > >
> > > Thats the whole problem... The chip is just to slow.
> >
> > yes for a desktop, but for the applications and the specs of this
> > project, it far exceeds what the alternatives can do, and will still be
> > in the "desktop speed ballpark", unlike a z80/68000 ;)
> 
> I would imagine that someone could build a 68000 today that consume very little
> power and runned at high mhz?

If they could, I know some people who would trick out an Amiga like 
you've never seen before ;)
 
> > > > As for the "Geek Mindshare" I think a Crusoe captures more
 mindshare
> > > > among the HW geeks than x86 does.
> > >
> > > I'm a programming geek.. and I got loads of tools for the x86. 
I also love processing power.
> > > The crusoe is a just a processor that got its core designed to
 be emulator friendly... But aside
> > > emulation is doen't have much to it.
> > >
> > > Again, I'm not a fan of that chip because I see no use for it 
in all common computing form.
> > > PDA, laptop, bookside, desktop, workstation, server... All have
 better processor already there for
> > > the picking.
> >
> > The project needs something that can do them all, at whim. No general
> > purpose device will ever outperform a specifically desined for a purpose
> > device, thats why we use 1400MHz Athlons to play games and 33MHz
> > Dragonballs to sync our palms. but neither one of those would be very
> > good at both ;)
> >
> >  You can play Quake on a Crusoe, and still remain at only 2 watts. The
> > same beast will run linux, and can scale down to less and be walked
> > around like a PDA.
> 
> How about the .9 volt .5 watt Mobile pentium3?
> Or the ultra low voltage mobile celeron (with mmx/sse)?
> 
> The 600mhz part is not cheap, but its still under 150$.

I'm not sure how much power the P3 system as a whole uses yet, havent 
had a chance to play with one yet, I'll have to look.

> >  It's not something that would replace the desktop, but an extension of
> > it, replacing possibly our webpads, mp3/Rio's, PDA's, pagers, inventory
> > interface units, ect with a common device/platform. It might even
> > slightly eat into the laptop market as alot of people only "need" a
> > laptop for trivial things anyway.
> 
> I think its going to be very, very hard for transmeta to take this place.
> But not impossible. If they can impose themself as the standart, then they can live
> those 5 years to get profitable.?

They've got one thing going for them, noone else is after this market, 
it's currently dominated by hundreds of 'submarket' solutions, Palm, 
Rio, etc, and Transmeta doesn't even necessarily need to compete with 
them to controll this market, they just need to become the main vendor
for the tribes currently camping there.

 Then again, Intel might just decide to squash them.