Re: If you could design a $300 homecomputer today, what would you choose?

["Stephan Schaem" <tthai@mindspring.com>]

"David Ogg" <davidogg@nc.rr.com> wrote in message MPG.13e33ad0e6900adc989689@news-server.nc.rr.com">news:MPG.13e33ad0e6900adc989689@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> In article <tln0ubc06v1g89@corp.supernews.com>, tthai@mindspring.com
> says...
> > > But those are "emulators", Crusoe's codemorphing is a much different
> > > beast, even x86 is just "codemorphed". c64/Amiga's are running on top of
> > > Windows/linux on top of x86. The Crusoe wouldn't need a host OS.
> >
> > Does codemorphing support handling of strobe registers? I dont think transmeta
> > support emulation of something as complex as the OCS HW register set.
> > The floppy controler register would need 'HW logic' emulated... etc... Not an easy task.
> > So you would need to show big revenue to spend all that R&D to emulate decade old HW.
>
> Not any more than it took them to write the codemorphing abstraction for
> x86, from what I hear, the x86 architecture was a real bitch with all
> the registers they had to emulate, I think the reason they emulate a 486
> is because those registers were documented. That was the reason NASA
> gave for using the 486 as well, access to documentation. Transmeta then
> had to provide a BIOS as well, as part of the morph abstraction.

The x86 is nasty that way... its *backward* compatible that to make something 100%
x86 compatible take a huge effort. (I also admire AMD for this... and in turn Transmeta)

>
> A big part of the R&D has already been worked out by others already, I'm
> sure AROS/UAE technology could be used. I know UAE is free under the GNU
> GPL license, not sure about AROS.

I'm not sure their is a market... but if their was, AMD could also make their processor
emulator friendly by adding so facilities to it.?

>
> > > > > Computer do alot nowdays in term of multimedia because of the power they have.
> > > > > I'm not so sure intel/amd etc.. just develope for people to run half life at 500FPS.
> > >
> > > On the contrary, they'll market them for dumber things, like Intel
> > > saying it's "New Pentium 4 processor will enhance the web" and going
> > > on about how the internet will be faster. I always get a kick out of
> > > that :)
> >
> > It run flash smoother, it handle better codec like mpeg4 and real, complex web page scrool
> > smother, it will give higher frame rate in complex java gfx applets, etc, etc...
> > So in effect, yes the web to an end user look smoother/faster... He can navigate a bit faster,
> > scroll complex page with ease.
> > Use a DSL conection on a pentium clasic and then a pentium4. If you visite media rich web
> > page you will see a Dramatic diference.
>
> Sure, but what they said was that the SIMD instructions new to the P3
> would speed up DSP code, making software modems faster. I think alot of
> people somehow thought that they could upgrade their dial-up connection
> by upgrading their processor. ;) It's true the SIMD instructions do
> include DSP specific instructions, but I doubt anyone would notice on a
> dial-up software modem anyway, and I don't think the network card
> drivers will benefit from SIMD at all, since there's no DSP taking place
> anyway.

I dont think you will see benefit at that level (packet thruput). Maybe a tiny, tiny bit
by using the cache control insruction. But nothing to advertize about.
The web is vague enought that intel can be doing this compain in reference to the execution
of the web data received.

> > > Because emulation would /be/ low performance, the Crusoe running a
> > > platform under codemorphing is faster than any emulator I've ever seen.
> > > Show me an x86 emulator that can run Windows faster than the Crusoe can
> > > under codemorphing/x86. Remember, this is a hobby box, if I want to toy
> > > with an OS, I want to run it natively, (or a codemorphing facimile
> > > thereof.)
> >
> > What OS worth anything doesn't run native on a x86? :)
> > And how much power do you need to get z80, 6502, 68000, etc.. emulation going on
> > a gigahertz clas thunderbird?
>
> ;) If it's meant to run Windows/Linux/Solaris ect. and sit on my desk,
> give me my Athlon 1400/266 768MB DDR MSI-K7T-Master w/raid box anyday,
> but this is a smaller, possibly battery-only portable hobby thing here
> meant to be multi purpose webpad/PDA/portable what have you, it would
> have to be very flexible in what you could do with it and where you
> could bring it, so as not to become so "niche" that noone buys it.

If it will run on batery forget what I said.... I'm intetrested in the strongarm, possibly crusoe native?
The second part here is compiler technologie.

I use to have a PB1000, a programable 'calculator'. Nothing like a TI... it was really like a small 8bit
computer... But it died. and if I could find a <300$ replacemtn I would jump on it.

>
>  The reason I see Crusoe as a good match for a project like this is that
> it sort of combines a dozen or so pre-existing niche markets into one
> market that could be sold the same hardware. There's already a market
> for a low-power webpad, and people are willing to pay $2300 for them
> (check out Slashdot's submissions for saturday) there's already a market
> for PDA's, and Crusoe is faster than anything in most PDA's right now.
> portable units for inventory and UPS/shipping are already being sold,
> for anywhere between $400-$1000.

How about the StrongArm? isn't it lower power and pack a nice punch?
For those device you dont really need code morphing unless you dont have the
right compiler tools.

>
>  Hell, Transmeta's Crusoe, running at 633MHz, is already being used in
> very-low power servers, running on 7 watts (idle) to 15 watts (max load)
> http://www.transmeta.com/everywhere/products/servers/rlxtechnologies/rlxtechnologies_system324.html
>
> (this link may wrap, my newsreader sucks)

That look massive! I really didn't think anyone would use that processor for server level design.
Nobody would put that much $$$ in R&D without having studyed the market well...
humm. I must be missing something.


> > > > > The market could even be expanded to commercial vendors, it would be a
> > > > > viable replacement for say, the hardware TiVo uses now. Cable
> > > > > descramblers, Sattelite receivers, hell, I can think of very little
> > > > > you couldn't make this thing do.
> > >
> > > > You would need native code to do software encoding on that chipat a decent speed.
> > > > Who would write all that code?
> > >
> > > In the case of the Tivo, it's already been written. the Linux/x86
> > > package is already available customised for the Crusoe, tailored by
> > > Linus Torvalds himself. In the case of the Satelite reciever, you can
> > > find the GPL'ed code from a link off of www.satmatrix.com. Kiosk
> > > software has already been made available for the Crusoe under GPL, so
> > > has PDA codemorphing for the Palm platform.
> >
> > What codec did Linus code nativly for the crusoe?!!?!?
> > Do you have a link on what is in a Tivo box?
>
> http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html
>
> They released their power-PC linux mods as per the GPL.
> Since the mods were developed by TiVo themselves, they already have the
> codec source, all they would need to do is recompile for Linus's
> "Transmeta distrobution" (maybe not even).

My original comment was about stuff outside the OS. For example software video codec.
You need those to run native to get realtime, usually assemby codec. So you need to man
power to get an mpeg2 decoder (encoder)...

>
> If Transmeta releases a PowerPC codemorphing layer (or someone makes
> one) they wont even need to do that. This would probably interest TiVo
> greatly, as they already stated they wish to make their money from
> selling the subscription, not the hardware.

I would imagine the best for them would be to reuse common PC parts?
Maybe a basic microATX MB modifyed a bit with a custom bios?

>
> > > The beauty is, if code isn't available, as long as you can produce the
> > > codemorphing layer, you just reuse your existing code! Case in point,
> >
> > Thats the whole problem... The chip is just to slow.
>
> yes for a desktop, but for the applications and the specs of this
> project, it far exceeds what the alternatives can do, and will still be
> in the "desktop speed ballpark", unlike a z80/68000 ;)

I would imagine that someone could build a 68000 today that consume very little
power and runned at high mhz?

> > > As for the "Geek Mindshare" I think a Crusoe captures more mindshare
> > > among the HW geeks than x86 does.
> >
> > I'm a programming geek.. and I got loads of tools for the x86. I also love processing power.
> > The crusoe is a just a processor that got its core designed to be emulator friendly... But aside
> > emulation is doen't have much to it.
> >
> > Again, I'm not a fan of that chip because I see no use for it in all common computing form.
> > PDA, laptop, bookside, desktop, workstation, server... All have better processor already there for
> > the picking.
>
> The project needs something that can do them all, at whim. No general
> purpose device will ever outperform a specifically desined for a purpose
> device, thats why we use 1400MHz Athlons to play games and 33MHz
> Dragonballs to sync our palms. but neither one of those would be very
> good at both ;)
>
>  You can play Quake on a Crusoe, and still remain at only 2 watts. The
> same beast will run linux, and can scale down to less and be walked
> around like a PDA.

How about the .9 volt .5 watt Mobile pentium3?
Or the ultra low voltage mobile celeron (with mmx/sse)?

The 600mhz part is not cheap, but its still under 150$.

>
>  It's not something that would replace the desktop, but an extension of
> it, replacing possibly our webpads, mp3/Rio's, PDA's, pagers, inventory
> interface units, ect with a common device/platform. It might even
> slightly eat into the laptop market as alot of people only "need" a
> laptop for trivial things anyway.

I think its going to be very, very hard for transmeta to take this place.
But not impossible. If they can impose themself as the standart, then they can live
those 5 years to get profitable.?

Stephan