Re: A2 Trade/Swap ... site ...

[<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>]

In message <396CBE20.D9A1897F@inetnebr.com>
Roy and/or Janet Miller <millers@inetnebr.com> writes:

>Shop lifting in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is a misdemeanor, ...

Fascinating. However, who was talking about shoplifting? The discussion
was comparing copyright infringement with jaywalking.  Please don't
criticize others for using "Ruby-logic" and then employ it yourself. ;o)

>
>>
>> If less than a misdemeanor infraction is observed you have
>> no right to detain anyone. i.e. If you detain a jaywalker YOU
>> have committed a serious crime.
>
>Now I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but what kind of crime is less than a
>misdemeanor? ...

Roy,  I won't bother defining it but
I'll give a close paraphrase: A felony is a crime punishable
by at least a year of incarceration. A misdemeanor is a crime
with a punishment that can include up to a year of
incarceration. All other infractions are civil and do not involve
incarceration (with the exception of contempt of court or congress).

>
>>
>> Additionally, if you "wrestle the person to the ground" or
>> especially if you "run a footrace, and then tackle the person"
>> and that person is injured in ANY manner because of it
>> you become liable for that persons injuries and can be
>> sued by the person you assaulted.
>
>Not if the person was resisting arrest, and if the arrest was not a false
>arrest.

Once again this is incorrect and this is what I responded to
in the first place. Citizens arrest (or arrest by a peace officer
for that matter) does NOT give you the right to injure the
perpetrator. You can be sued if you injure him. You may not
like that but it is true. If you use force that is beyond reasonable
(and for shoplifting, at least in Michigan, the courts have found
that ANY physical force MAY be found to be unreasonable,
depending upon the circumstance). Not only can you be
sued by the person you are arresting, you CAN be found
criminally liable. But let's look just a little deeper. In the
USA the concept of "citizens arrest" was CODIFIED because
more than 100 years ago the courts found that a peace
officer outside of his jurisdiction has no more right to arrest
someone than any citizen. The intent of citizens arrest law was
to allow a peace officer to make an arrest even if he
crosses a jurisdictional boundry. In the meantime, bounty
hunters took advantage of the law, and ordinary citizens
became allowed to make arrests, but they are subject to every
detail that an on-duty peace officer is including Miranda
et al. If you do not follow the laws of arrest as outlined in your
state's penal code to the letter you can get yourself into a
heap o' trouble.


>>
>> Witnessing a felony assault does not give a citizen a right
>> to accost the perpetrator.
>
>If you do nothing, you are an accessory to the crime. You have the right
>to use force, up to and including deadly force (depending on the
>situation) to stop a felony assault.
>

More "Ruby-logic". You can be sued and arrested yourself. Don't
fool yourself by law programs on TV. Good Samaritan laws, to the
best of my knowledge, are always stricken down as unconstitutional.
You cannot, in this country, legislate people to intercede. Deadly
force is allowed in so few circumstances that it will almost always
get you into a heap o' trouble. Killing in self-defence is not
automatically (though juries from state to state may have differing
opinions on the matter) granted as a valid defense, regardless
of what you see on TV.

>> If you detain him, you better not
>> touch him. Licensed security guards are only private
>> citizens in the USA and only have the same
>> "citizen's arrest" rights as you or I.
>>
>
>Agreed on the last part. However, depending on the local laws, the guard
>does have that right to not merely touch, but to physically restrain, just
>as you do when someone enters your home.

No, you are incorrect. The guard can still be sued or found
criminally liable. The guard can observe and report the crime. A citizens
arrest statute does not protect you from being sued or found liable.

But all this is beside the point. For an infraction less than a
misdemeanor even an on duty police officer cannot make an arrest.
If a cop arrested you for jaywalking (you prove  that jaywalking
is a misdemeanor anywhere, I don't give a ratzass ;o) that constitutes
a false arrest. Cops can only issue citations for civil infractions.

Eric <chippys@earthlink.net>