Re: apple.cabi.net and the A2-Delphi forum-- time to share?

[Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net>]

Tony Ward writes ...
> 
> First, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Tony Ward and I am the
> Database Manager (Librarian) for the Apple II Forums on Delphi and
> Genie. I am not here to get into a flame war with anyone, so please just
> don't go there. I am also not here as an official Syndicomm spokesman. I
> am just voicing my opinion and setting a few things straight. I will be
> happy to address any legitimate questions, but please take your flames
> elsewhere.
>
> Let me state up front that if you disagree with Delphi and/or Genie
> policies, please take it up with their respective managements
> (feedback@delphi.com and feedback@genie.com). Neither I nor Syndicomm
> has any control over these policies. We run our forums on their systems
> and follow their rules
 ....

     Naturally. However, the question centers around why you choose to place your
archive of Apple II materials on such a site. If a goal is to get more users to
connect to Delphi with their Apple II's, why close off a major source of the software
which makes this possible?

     In a similar vein, if the purpose of "The Lamp" is to communicate news to Apple
II users, why keep it bottled up on a for-pay site and leave 99% of Apple II users
with out-of-date back issues?


 
> Let me also state that many Syndicomm staff members have been running
> Apple II (and other) forums for 15 years or more. They know what they
> are doing. They know what works and what doesn't.
>
     So do the guys who run Ground and the other free archives.


 
> Now I will try to answer as many of Rubywand's questions as I can.
> 
> Yes, Syndicomm is remunerated by Delphi and Genie. However, the amount
> is so small that most people would consider it inconsequential. I
> suppose it's just enough to keep Syndicomm interested in managing the
> forums.

     If Syndicomm can get paid for what it does, good for Syndicomm.


> Keep in mind that there is a whole team of =volunteer= staff
> members who maintain the forums on a daily basis. These volunteers spend
> their free time making sure everything runs smoothly. These forums are
> not intended to be unmoderated free-for-alls. That sort of thing is
> available right here on Usenet and on various ftp sites.

     We call it "Free Speech".

> 
> Syndicomm has nothing to lose by making the Delphi and Genie files
> freely accessible because most of the files are already available
> elsewhere.
 ....

     Good. Since Syndicomm has nothing to lose and users have something to gain, why
not make the files freely accessible on an open site?


> Frankly, the Delphi database system leaves a lot to be
> desired. I really wish they would provide ftp access, but they don't.
> Nothing Syndicomm can do about that. The Genie library system is vastly
> superior, but it's only available on a direct-dial basis.

     Too bad; and, yet another reason for going public. If all of the files not
already available were distributed among the public sites-- or, even better, all of
the files were hosted on a new, public Syndicomm site-- then, all users would have
free, easy ftp access.



> 
> The files on Genie and Delphi are not being hidden or kept away from
> anybody. Yes, they can only be accessed by paid subscribers,

     Possibly, the term "hidden" has a perjorative feel. Even so, the basic fact is
that, at present, the files are not accessible unless you pay.



> but the
> vast majority of the files can be found elsewhere. The only exceptions
> are a few limited distribution files that the authors request not be
> uploaded elsewhere, and things like bulletin board discussions and
> conference transcripts.

     I've often wondered why an Apple II archive would promote the idea of "freeware"
or "shareware" which can not be placed on every Apple II site for easy access and
enjoyment by all Apple II users. Yes, obviously, _if_ you are going to charge for
access, you want to be able to say "We have special stuff that you can't get unless
you pay." But, if the ultimate goal is to promote the expansion and enjoyment of
Apple II computing, why have the software on a place which charges for access?



> 
> If you don't want to pay for the services provided by Genie and/or
> Delphi, then get the files somewhere else. You get what you pay for.

     The above observation would have a nice capitalist ring to it if Snydicomm or
someone were really making money from the operation on Delphi. But, as you have
observed, this is not the case. So, we are back to the question of Why should anyone
have to pay? _All_ of the files could be moved to an open site.



> We
> spend time verifying and organizing our files. We provide descriptions
> and searchable keywords. We are there to answer questions. In fact, many
> of the remaining software publishers and authors provide personal
> support for their products, both commercial and freeware/shareware. You
> can see this part for yourself on Delphi with a free Web account.

     Yes; it is amazing how much time and work so many II users put into such
activities for no pay. It's one of the big reasons the Apple II is gaining new users.

     On the other hand, you've just demonstrated that, really, there is no need for
your archive of Apple II materials to remain confined to a for-pay site. Those who
work to maintain the Delphi archive could, just as well, work to maintain an open
Syndicomm archive.

     

 
> The statement that "most Apple II users don't access the Internet with
> their Apple II" is irrelevant.

     Well, yes, when pulled out of context and just tossed up on the screen.
Supposedly, one of the big benefits of a paid Delphi account is having a net
environment (Delphi) which is accessible via Apple II's. An Apple II owner who
depends upon a PC or Mac for net access would be paying for something he/she does not
use.



> We (the Genie and Delphi Apple II forums)
> cater to Apple II users, regardless of how they accessing our forums. We
> do make sure that any Apple II owner with a modem and basic telecom
> software can access our forums, hence the popularity of the direct-dial
> account. You don't need any fancy browsers to access Genie and Delphi.

     Except that most of us have fancy browsers. We more or less need them to get
anywhere on the net.


> 
> Just as a side note, I am using an Apple IIgs right now to compose and
> post this message. I find that my Apple IIgs provides me with more
> telecom enjoyment than a PC or Mac.
> 

     It's pretty much the same with games. I think the Apple II 'secret' is that it's
a machine the user can actually control.



Rubywand