Re: apple.cabi.net and the A2-Delphi forum-- time to share?

[CUTjefbla@bconnex.net (Jeff Blakeney)]

On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:23:33 -0500, Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net>
wrote:

>     Naturally. However, the question centers around why you choose to place your
>archive of Apple II materials on such a site. If a goal is to get more users to
>connect to Delphi with their Apple II's, why close off a major source of the software
>which makes this possible?

Huh?  If any Apple II user wishes to do anything online using a modem
they need to get some form of communications software before they can
access anything online.  This means that until they get such software,
they can't even call Delphi so any communications software that is
there is not needed by them to connect to Delphi so it isn't being
closed off from them.

What you propose is a chicken and egg theory.  Connect to Delphi to
get communications software.  How do I connect to Delphi.  Use
communications software to connect to Delphi.  Continue looping
infinitely.

You need communications software before you can do any communications
related stuff with your Apple II.

>     In a similar vein, if the purpose of "The Lamp" is to communicate news to Apple
>II users, why keep it bottled up on a for-pay site and leave 99% of Apple II users
>with out-of-date back issues?

Again, that is not up to Delphi, Syndicomm or the staff of the A2 and
A2Pro forums on Delphi.  That is up to the author.

>> Let me also state that many Syndicomm staff members have been running
>> Apple II (and other) forums for 15 years or more. They know what they
>> are doing. They know what works and what doesn't.
>>
>     So do the guys who run Ground and the other free archives.

Personally, meaning no offense to anyone, I've always found that the
ground site has very poor organization for an FTP site.

>     If Syndicomm can get paid for what it does, good for Syndicomm.

You say this here but later on you complain about how if Syndicomm
were making any real money they would be capitalistic.  Which is it?
Do you think it is fine if someone can make a buck off of their
products/services to Apple II users or do you condemn them for not
making everything they do free of charge?

>> Keep in mind that there is a whole team of =volunteer= staff
>> members who maintain the forums on a daily basis. These volunteers spend
>> their free time making sure everything runs smoothly. These forums are
>> not intended to be unmoderated free-for-alls. That sort of thing is
>> available right here on Usenet and on various ftp sites.
>
>     We call it "Free Speech".

Call it what you want, I still prefer the "nice" atmosphere of
Delphi's forums to here.  I continue to read the messages here every
day but it is rather annoying have to wade through the off topic posts
and flames, which have been fairly low lately, thank goodness.

>     Good. Since Syndicomm has nothing to lose and users have something to gain, why
>not make the files freely accessible on an open site?

You still don't get it do you.  Users have nothing to gain if the
files on Delphi are made "freely accessible on an open site".  There
are few to no files on Delphi that are not already "freely accessible
on an open site" with the exception of the ones that can't be made
available that way because of distribution restrictions placed on them
by their respective authors.

And again, this is a restriction that the authors placed on their work
and there is nothing Delphi, Syndicomm or the staff of the A2 and
A2Pro forums can do about it.

>> Frankly, the Delphi database system leaves a lot to be
>> desired. I really wish they would provide ftp access, but they don't.
>> Nothing Syndicomm can do about that. The Genie library system is vastly
>> superior, but it's only available on a direct-dial basis.
>
>     Too bad; and, yet another reason for going public. If all of the files not
>already available were distributed among the public sites-- or, even better, all of
>the files were hosted on a new, public Syndicomm site-- then, all users would have
>free, easy ftp access.

They already do.  See above.  See my other post(s).  See other
people's posts.  This has been said many times now.

Can you tell that repeating this point over and over is starting to
get to me?

>> The files on Genie and Delphi are not being hidden or kept away from
>> anybody. Yes, they can only be accessed by paid subscribers,
>
>     Possibly, the term "hidden" has a perjorative feel. Even so, the basic fact is
>that, at present, the files are not accessible unless you pay.

Yes, the file areas of Delphi are not accessible unless you have a
telnet or dialup account which are both pay.  This has been said many
times before and it has never been a real problem for anyone.  If you
don't want to pay a mere $35/year then download the files you want
from other places on the internet.

Personally, the file area access isn't the big reason I got a telnet
account with Delphi.  It is the ability to use an offline reader and
being able to use the text side for chats (because the web side is
flakey and slow).

>     I've often wondered why an Apple II archive would promote the idea of "freeware"
>or "shareware" which can not be placed on every Apple II site for easy access and
>enjoyment by all Apple II users. Yes, obviously, _if_ you are going to charge for
>access, you want to be able to say "We have special stuff that you can't get unless
>you pay." But, if the ultimate goal is to promote the expansion and enjoyment of
>Apple II computing, why have the software on a place which charges for access?

Most of the software on Delphi is truely freeware and shareware as is
evidenced by the fact that those pieces of software are available
elsewhere on the net.  There is some pieces of software that are
restricted distribution freeware and shareware which is a different
thing entirely.

I suppose one reason to keep stuff on a place that charges for access
is that you can count on the hardware and software as well as other
aspects of the system to be reliable, consistant and maintained.
Another reason is that it helps to keep the riff raff to a minimum.

>> If you don't want to pay for the services provided by Genie and/or
>> Delphi, then get the files somewhere else. You get what you pay for.
>
>     The above observation would have a nice capitalist ring to it if Snydicomm or
>someone were really making money from the operation on Delphi. But, as you have
>observed, this is not the case. So, we are back to the question of Why should anyone
>have to pay? _All_ of the files could be moved to an open site.

The files don't need to be moved to an open site.  They are already
there.  Repeat ad infinitum.

>     Yes; it is amazing how much time and work so many II users put into such
>activities for no pay. It's one of the big reasons the Apple II is gaining new users.
>
>     On the other hand, you've just demonstrated that, really, there is no need for
>your archive of Apple II materials to remain confined to a for-pay site. Those who
>work to maintain the Delphi archive could, just as well, work to maintain an open
>Syndicomm archive.

Why bother?  There are already people maintaining open sites on the
net that already have pretty much everything that is on Delphi.
Besides, what if the file maintainers of Delphi only have a direct
dial account?  It would be a bit of a pain for them to try to deal
with stuff on an FTP site that way.

>> The statement that "most Apple II users don't access the Internet with
>> their Apple II" is irrelevant.
>
>     Well, yes, when pulled out of context and just tossed up on the screen.
>Supposedly, one of the big benefits of a paid Delphi account is having a net
>environment (Delphi) which is accessible via Apple II's. An Apple II owner who
>depends upon a PC or Mac for net access would be paying for something he/she does not
>use.

Delphi is an online service.  If the internet didn't exist, Delphi
would still be there providing almost all the services it now does.
You never have to use the internet with a Delphi direct dial account
so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Oh, and I use my paid Delphi account from my Pentium II all the time.
Like I said above, chats are much more enjoyable from the text side
which I sometimes do using a telnet client on my PC.

>> We (the Genie and Delphi Apple II forums)
>> cater to Apple II users, regardless of how they accessing our forums. We
>> do make sure that any Apple II owner with a modem and basic telecom
>> software can access our forums, hence the popularity of the direct-dial
>> account. You don't need any fancy browsers to access Genie and Delphi.
>
>     Except that most of us have fancy browsers. We more or less need them to get
>anywhere on the net.

Fine, use your browser on the net.  Genie and Delphi are online
services that can be used without the need of the net at all.  The
only thing on Delphi that I access with a web browser is the A2 and
A2Pro forum web pages.

So, any bets on how many times I'll have to repeat myself in my next
post?  :-)

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