Re: WOLF3D fot A2 GS

[spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector)]

In article supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) writes...

>spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) wrote:
>
>>In article supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) writes...
>>>I don't have a 25Mhz 386 to compare, but that is also quite
>>>irrelevant because the 386 was not the IIgs contemporary.
>>
>>    Bzzzt, wrong. The first 386 machines (i.e. the ALR Access
>>386 and Compaq Deskpro 386) were introduced in September 1986,
>>which coincidentally, is the very same month the Apple IIgs
>>was announced.
>
>But not a 25Mhz 386.  Nowhere NEAR 25Mhz.  ;-)

    I would assume the first 386's ran at 16 MHz, though if you
want to be picky, only five months after the IIgs was released
Intel introduced the 20 MHz 386DX (true 32-bit) and two months
following that IBM released the PS/2 Model 80 with a 386DX-20.
That is still close enough to be the IIgs's contemporary, even
more so when you consider GS's weren't widely available until
around the start of 1987.

    The 25 MHz 386DX didn't appear until April 1988, which makes
it more a contemporary for the Apple IIc Plus (this also shows
what a poor move it was releasing another 8-bit Apple II in this
era).

>>    Granted 386's were quite expensive and not mainstream at
>>this point in time, the very same was true of the Apple IIgs.
>>So in fact the 386 *was* the IIgs contemporary--and dead on
>>in terms of dates.
>
>Well let me tell you something....I happen to remember the
>time because I snooped around for a computer myself and
>a Kaypro AT (286) was more expensive than an Apple IIGS
>with a monitor and two disk drives.  The 386 was probably so
>exotic that it was several times the cost of the IIGS and it
>was not 25Mhz.  In fact, these early units were probably not
>much faster than the 8Mhz AT I have.

    Well since we're talking about the 386DX-20, it'd be a lot
faster and more powerful than any 286. Keep in mind it was also
a true 32-bit processor (the 386SX was a pseudo 32-bit CPU, it
kind of worked like a pair of 16-bit 286's running in parallel).

    I paid absolutely no attention to 286's and 386's when I
was shopping around for a new computer in 1987. As you said,
they were terribly expensive and worse, mostly just used by
businesses and had very few games or home productivity software.
Of course there wasn't even anything better than the internal
speaker for music synthesis (the AdLib only just came out the
end of 1987, early 1988). Mac's of that time were pretty much
the same, expensive business machines. All in all, I think I
made a good choice in picking the IIgs. An even better choice
probably would have been the Amiga--which cost far less, had
more software and was more powerful (but all this at a high
cost, since it would have meant losing Apple II compatibility).

>>>I have two 1986 vintage IBM computers, one XT and one AT
>>>(the 8Mhz model).  Even at the stock 2.8Mhz speed, the
>>>IIgs unzips a file and converts a jpeg graphic FASTER than
>>>my XT.  It does most things similar to my AT in speed....and
>>>I'm talking about WITHOUT the accelerator.  Neither can run
>>>Wolf 3D AT ALL.
>>
>>    Wrong again. Apogee's Wolfenstein 3D will run on an IBM AT
>>at minimum (by "AT" I'm referring to a 286 class machine). It
>>is recommended you use at least a 386 for enjoyable gameplay,
>>just as Sheppy recommends you use an accelerated IIgs for the
>>GS version to be playable.
>
>So it would run on an IBM AT with a CGA card and 640k?

    No, it would run on an IBM AT with VGA card and probably 1 MB
(not sure about the memory requirements, though it definitely ran
on a friend's 386 with 2 MB).

>Somehow I doubt that.  Even with the 1MB expansion (640k
>plus expanded up to 1MB) which was common much later
>seems somewhat shallow for Wolf 3D.....I mean, it won't
>run with that amount of memory on the GS!

    If you don't believe me, go read the system requirements for
Wolfenstein 3D that came with the game. It definitely ran on a
286 with VGA card (in 256 color MCGA mode). What it requires on
the IIgs is irrelevant, this is the original version of Wolf 3D
your comparing, not a port.

>>    Technically, the stock IIgs is more similar to the 286--
>>which plays Wolfenstein 3D as well--but the first 286 class
>>machines started shipping 2 years prior to the IIgs (so they
>>are more comtemporary of the Apple IIc).
>
>Sure, but there were TWO models of IBM AT.  One was 6Mhz
>and one was 8Mhz.  I am saying that the stock IIGS at
>2.6Mhz could stand up well to the 8Mhz model, which was
>around during the 1986 year (and the model I have).

    I've heard the stock IIgs is comparable to about a 12 MHz
286 AT machine. That is nothing to be proud of really, as the
286 wasn't much of a machine. :) Given the choice, I'd certainly
pick a IIgs over a 286 or lower without any hesitation. It
also may stand up against a 386SX-16 in certain areas, but once
you start talking about 386DX machines (32-bit), the GS doesn't
compare any longer (other than it's superior GUI).

    It's funny as I _used_ to believe an accelerated IIgs was
equal or better than a 386DX-33 in terms of speed, but now I
know better. :) You could run Windows 95 on something as low
as a 386DX-20, and surpass GS/OS and the Finder, but in order
for Windows 95 to be usable you need at least a 486DX2/66.

>I guess it is true you can claim the Compaq 386 came out
>as a contemporary to the IIGS, but the way I see it, Compaq
>was not hot at the time.  In those days, you had to compare
>Apples with IBMs and IBM produced the 8Mhz AT (most
>comparable in performance to the IIGS) in 1986.  The slower
>AT came out earlier, but that model was slower than a stock
>IIGS (Every try running GEM on an AT?  Even in CGA it will
>make Finder running on a stock 2.6Mhz IIGS look like a
>speed demon!).

    Alright then, compare it with the IBM PS/2 Model 80 that
was released April 1987 (that had a 20 MHz 386DX CPU). Since
there is less than a 6 month gap between it and the IIgs, it
makes for a good contender. Sure Windows 3.11 didn't exist
at that time, yet neither did GS/OS. In fact, the IIgs only
had System 2.0 which used an early version of ProDOS 16 and
MouseDesk/Apple II Desktop.

Mitchell Spector
spec@vax2.concordia.ca