Re: PLEASE STOP THE MAC AND MICROSOFT MESSAGES

[CUTjefbla@bconnex.net (Jeff Blakeney)]

I have wanted to reply to some of the stuff in this thread but I
haven't done so due to lack of time and trying not to add to thread.

However, as it has gone on this long, adding a bit won't really be a
strain on anyone and I figured I had better give Mitchel some support.

On 23 May 1998 23:22:59 GMT, shack@onyx.southwind.net (Randy
Shackelford) wrote:

>Don't pull a Nathan and say that just because you have no interest, there
>is no place for Apple Inc news.

I believe that those people who don't own a Mac or Newton will have as
much interest in news about Apple Computer Inc. as they have in news
about any company they do not own any products of.  As Apple only
supports Mac and Newton users at present, they are the only people who
have any vested interest in whether the company survives or not.
Therefore, news about Apple Computer Inc. should be posted in Mac and
Newton newsgroups.

>Saying they abandoned Apple IIs is a matter of opinion though. I've bought
>and used Apple IIs, and I've bought and used 68K Macs. Support for the former
>is all but gone, and for the latter it is going fast. Using a 68K Mac to get
>things done is getting more and more difficult. Do I feel abandoned? Not
>at all.

Matter of opinion?  Did Apple not discontinue every Apple II product
line?  If not supporting a product and stopping production of it isn't
abandoning it, I'm not sure what is.

As to your not feeling abandoned while using a 68k Mac, I have a
question.  Can you still walk into a store and get technical support
or buy software and hardware for your 68k Mac?  I'm sure you can.  I
haven't been able to do that with my IIgs for at least five years.

>Without going to the trouble to fine a specific article, I've seen Apple II
>related stuff in the TIL more recent than that. That resource would certainly
>evaporate if Apple bit it.

I'm not sure what you would have seen as the Tech Notes and File Type
Notes haven't been updated since 1992 or 1993 and System 6.01 for the
IIgs came out in 1993.

>Um, You can still get Apple IIs repaired at authorized dealers, download
>software updates, search the TIL for Apple II info, etc. I'd say those
>are ties. Plus read the last paragraph of any Apple press release.

Any software updates that Apple has for the Apple II have been
available to many years and are also available from many other
sources.  The same goes for the information in the Tech Info Library.
Oh, and file type assignments and, I believe, updating of the tech
notes is now the responsiblity of Syndicom.  They are the people who
run the Apple II areas on Genie and Delphi.

As to getting your Apple II repaired at an authorized dealer, I'm not
entirely sure but I don't think that is possible.  Not only do people
get blank stares or have to spend fifteen minutes explaining to the
tech that it isn't a Mac II but how would the authorized dealer get
replacement parts since all Apple II computers have been discontinued
for at least three years?  (At least five for the IIgs if I recall
correctly.)

>I'll overlook your Nathanesque use of the pronoun we. Here's a thought:
>AE, AST, Chinook, Checkmate, and many other companies once made Apple II
>products but no longer do. Is discussing them in the scope of this group?

No discussing what those companies are doing now or what their current
stock value is does not belong in this newsgroup.  As you said, they
no longer make Apple II products so why should we Apple II users care
if one of these companies comes out with new hardware that won't work
on our machines?

Talking about the stuff they made and what the company did while
making them is on topic and if they start producing Apple II stuff
again in the future then I'm sure many would be more than happy to
hear about what they are doing.

For example, Iomega has never made any Apple II specific hardware but
we can talk about Iomega Zip drives that we use with our Apple IIs.

>Now's a good time to point out that news is typically a one time reference
>to an event, not a discussion.

Only if it isn't very interesting news.  And if it isn't interesting,
why bother posting it?  If Apple were to announce that they were
releasing a new Apple II, I don't think it would be a one time post.
If Apple were to license the Apple II technology to another company
then we already have evidence that this wouldn't be a one time post
but become a discussion.  Look back for messages about the Tiger
Learning Computer.

>This is again overlooking the fact that you can talk about a company without
>mentioning any of its products. And besides, Apple does make other products.
>If someone posted here about a new Apple printer, is this topical or not?

If the new Apple printer is usable by an Apple II then yes, it would
be on topic.  If it doesn't then it shouldn't be posted here because
it doesn't mean anything to Apple II users.

>Hopefully no "ban" exists on anything. When that happens, I'm off usenet.

No, there is no way to enforce a ban in usenet (unless you are in a
moderated newsgroup) so there will never be a ban on anything.
However, there is a heirarchy set up to allow people to find
information about a particular subject easily.  Usenet has a
categorical systems but totally relies on the users keeping their
posts relevant and on topic.  This is why there are a number of people
telling you that this is comp.sys.apple2 and that Mac messages and
talk about what Apple Computer Inc. is currently doing is off topic
and should be posted elsewhere.

>While we're talking about old boxes, recall how software emulation didn't
>count in your estimation. However, as you're doubtless aware, Pmacs use
>software emulation to remain compatible with Macs like my Quadra. Now if
>68K software emulation is good enough to say that Pmacs are compatible
>with 68Ks, why doesn't it work to say they're compatible with Apple IIs?
>Before you say that the hardware is compatible, bear in mind that a nubus
>Mac has about as much G3 compatible hardware inside it as your average 
>IIgs has on it.

I'm sure the hardware is much more similar than you let on.  Yes they
might have different slot interfaces but everything in the machine
still works like the 68k Macs.

As to emulation, from what I understand the 68k emulation is done in
ROM which, in essence, makes the emulation part of the hardware and
only has to emulate the processor itself.  Whereas emulating an Apple
II requires total software emulation of the processor and all the
other electronic subsystems like video, keyboard, speaker as well as
any interface cards you wish to emulate like serial ports or
Mockingboard sound cards (because you can't stick one in your Mac).
Then there is the problem that not all interface cards can be emulated
and you can't hook up a 5.25" drive to your Mac.

Emulation is defintely a topic unto itself which is evidenced by the
number of emulator newsgroups that exist in usenet.

>I've trimmed large chunks out of this article in the hope of winding this
>thread down. I think the solution is to not complain too much about content,
>especially when it's so easy to avoid reading stuff which doesn't interest 
>you. It's not like this group has a suffocating amount of traffic or anything
>like that. I let stuff that bores the snot out of me, like those endless 
>threads about how Apple should have used ARMs in Apple IIs, the current
>boycott Microsoft junk, yada yada pass on without complaint. To complain
>only serves to increase the useless newsgroup traffic. I think using my
>email method with people who post off topic stuff will work better.

Personally, I read every message because some poor soul may have
posted a valid question in a thread with a strange subject.  It
happens many times that unrelated topics can bring a forgotten
question to the foreground and the user simply adds the question to
their current reply instead of starting a new thread.  This is how
threads can easily (and do so quite often) wander from what the
subject says.  Again, this is a part of usenet where the onus is one
the user to make sure things work smoothly.

As to it being easy to not read stuff that doesn't interest you, I can
say that it is also easy to find stuff that does interest you.  If you
want news about Apple Computer Inc. go to a newsgroup with that type
of information.  If you want news about Apple II computers come to
comp.sys.apple2.

And finally, e-mailing advice about off topic posting isn't always the
answer.  It can be good but sometimes it is easier to post one message
which will be read by many, educating them all that a certain subject
is off topic, rather than having to keep e-mailing each individual
that posts off topic stuff.

=== I've had enough SPAM.  Cut the obvious from my address to email me. ===
         Jeff Blakeney - Dean of the Apple II University on Delphi