Re: A New Game for the GS!

[nathan@cco.caltech.edu (Nathan Mates)]

In article <2r0d05$kkb@crl.crl.com>, Joe Kohn <joko@crl.com> wrote:
>I just can't believe that people have flamed Richard King, and continue to
>flame him. I can't take it too much longer, so I'm going to add my 2 cents.

   There's two sorts of flames here: 1) Flames for not following the
'netequitte' that's customary here, with even bigger flames back for
Richard's almost hostile (in our minds) replies to our asking him to
follow well-established patterns.

2) 'Flames', or not really flattering reviews of the game, Wiggle,
itself. Yes, I'm one of those who downloaded it, played a few games,
then critiqued the playability of it and all. There's a difference
between raw 'this sucks' (which it doesn't), and 'this needs work'
(which it does).

   This is real life. People need to be told that things need work,
and simply releasing something won't automatically earn you fawning
reviews. Pampering the egos of everybody is _not_ the way to get
the best results; you need to tell them what & how things are wrong,
and suggest improvements. (Which I think I did.)


>First of all, Richard King first arrived here on c.s.a2 very recently. His
>first posts were incredibly well written and well thought out, and he
>quickly proved himself to be an enegetic and positive force in our
>community. After all, it was Richard's efforts and vision that got The
>Phoenix Project up and running, and it was through Richard's efforts that
>Foundation was re-released as freeware.

   Good for him! But, just because one person has done a great service
to everyone doesn't mean that everything else is to be accorded great
reviews. So far, his skills have been shown to be really great in the
field of reviving 'dead' software. Less so in programming.

   For example, my music composing skills are far worse than my
disassembling/debugging skills. But, if I write something for SS, and
release it, does that mean I should be treated with 'kid gloves'? No.
Tell me that it stinks, and I'll go back to looking at the innards
of programs. I'm grown up. I can take criticism. 

>As if that wasn't enough, Richard King has also shown himself to be a pretty
>good programmer, as evidenced by the 'Worm Wiggle' game he posted the other
>day on c.b.a2, which by the way, took me all of about 25 seconds to
>download.

   Download time for you may be diddly-squat. Over ethernet here, I
managed to download it in about 3. So bloody what? Does everybody have
ethernet or fast modems? No. People want to know _what_ they're
downloading if they're going to invest the time (and money, probably as
well) to download this.

   By the way, that's all you said about the game itself, 'pretty good
programmer'. How did you find the playability, the game concept itself,
and all, or you going to merely going to defend the author on his
other achievements?


>In my humble opinion, Richard King has proven himself to be an Apple II
>"mover and shaker", and I am quite literally aghast at the flames directed
>at him. After all, every single day on c.s.a2, I read posts that contain
>inaccurate information, and I don't see the posters who post without
>thinking getting flamed.

   See my last sentence above this paragraph.... You think this is a
flamewar? Nah. This is a few matches being lit. If you see what you
think is inaccurate info, feel free to jump in, anytime. You don't
have to hold your position as 'Apple II guiding light' up all the
time; feel free to correct others!


>All of which brings up something in my mind. These are my opinions, and they
>may be right and they may be wrong, but I think they deserve airing...

>In a very general sense, the way I see it is that we have 2 distinct groups
>of people that access c.s.a2. Although I hate to generalize, one large group
>is composed of students and the other group is composed of adults.

>I thoroughly believe that what has become known as "Netiquette" is
>predicated and based in large part by youth and their idealism.

   You're the newbie here, and you're the idealist. Flame wars have
been going on for almost as long as the net; being nice on the net has
also been around for quite a long time. Some of the oldest groups have
much, much higher levels of 'Netiquette'... For example, ever read the
faq's on the comp.sys.unix* groups? In those, they tell people that if
they ask a question to specifically ask for replies in email, and then
to post a collated summary at the end of things, _in order to save the
net money from lots of followups_!

   I fit your category of 'student', but I fit much better into the
realist/slight pessimist mold. If I feel that something needs to be
critiqued, I will do so. Other things, I simply say that they're that
way, and won't ever be fixed. (Like Apple killing the Apple II series)


>On the other hand, we have adults here, most of whom used to be idealistic
>youth at one time too. But, in the real world, where you have to come up
>with rent checks and alimony checks and where you have a boss or job you
>might hate, it's not that easy to remain idealistic.

   You're the one that's the resident idealist, and you're the "grown
up" type. 

>The point is, at least as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather see students
>acting like adults than see adults acting like students.

   No, as I've said, we're the realists, and you're the idealist. That
fits what you want, and you aren't happy. Maybe if you become the
realist, and we go back to programming the cool things (and maybe if
you just killfile'd all of us so you don't see our critiques of things
until they're released), you'd be happy. Nah, will never happen. :)


>I'd like to see some respect around here for people like Richard King. Think
>about it...why do you think that all the active Apple II companies do not
>maintain a presence here? Why is it that we see less and less of people that
>produce commercial software hanging out on c.s.a2? Could it be that they are
>as put off by the flamewars as I am? Or, as Richard King is?

   All? I'll let Jawaid handle that. Also, why is it that the internet
is much harder to get to (except in the past year) then commerical
online services?  Why is it that online services sometimes give free
accounts to companies for the presence? Why it a surprise to you?

>Think about it. Do you want to drive Richard King from the net? If so, I
>think you're doing a good job of it. Cut the man some slack! If you must
>flame him, at least start out by thanking him for his efforts with Phoenix.

   Phoenix is different from this program. There's not a single
mention of it in the program at all, so why should we drag it into it?
_If_ the program had said Phoenix all over it, let the name Phoenix be
entered into the debate.  I didn't even connect the name Richard King
with Phoenix until you dragged it in. I made that review totally on
the merits of the game, and nothing else.


>Do you want to "support those who support the Apple II" or would you
>rather see them move on? Like so many others have.

   Ever hear of the difference between constuctive criticism (you tell
people that you would _like_ a description of the file when you post
it; hopefully that only has to be done once), and flaming? Yes, some
people might take things harshly; we learn what their limits are,
and usually try not to overstep that. 

>As Pink Floyd sang, "Careful with that flame, Eugene"

    Yeah. You might get something in response :)



Nathan Mates


-- 
* Nathan Mates nathan@cco.caltech.edu * MSC #850, Pasadena CA 91126 *
* Ftp humor archiver: ftp to cco.caltech.edu, look in pub/humor     *
* Largest collection of Clinton Jokes, other canonical lists        *
* Support Twilight II, the best screen saver for the Apple IIGS!    *