Re: NTSC Monitor Vs Apple IIgs' Monitor

["Knut" <kr-lund@nogarbage.online.no>]

"Paul Schlyter" <pausch@saaf.se> wrote in message 
news:dja4in$2912$1@merope.saaf.se...
> In article <lK6dncSNFoHEacreRVnzvA@telenor.com>,
> Knut Roll-Lund  <kr-lund@nogarbage.online.no> wrote:
>> Paul Schlyter wrote:
>>
>>> In article <pan.2005.10.19.20.58.14.862648@emeraldcity.gov>,
>>> The Wizard of Oz  <wizard@emeraldcity.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Of course I have a monochrome NTSC monitor
>>>
>>>
>>> No you don't .... a "monochrome NTSC monitor" is an oxymoron.
>>>
>>> NTSC is a system for *color* television.  A monochrome monitor does not
>>> show any color and therefore lacks the circuitry needed to decode NTSC
>>> signals.
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> NTSC started out as the b&w standard and got colors later.
>
> Interesting .... so that means the television system of Brazil shall
> be called NTSC/PAL ???  NTSC because they use the NTSC b&w standard
> (525 lines/etc), and PAL because the color is encoded according to
> PAL standards.

from Wikipedia (English) on subject NTSC
Brazil (PAL-M system, based on NTSC-M standard but using PAL color encoding)

>
> This site:
>
>   http://www.mtxindia.com/An1.htm
>
> refers to the underlying 525-line b&w standard as EIA rather than NTSC.
>
>
> Also: monochrome monitors are usually quite flexible.  I have an old
> monochrome monitor myself which easily can sync to both 625-line CCIR
> and 525-line EIA (or NTSC) video signals.

Also my Philips 12" (from around 1984) does whatever.

>
>
>> What you say would be correct for PAL because PAL is the color system,
>> the addition to the b&w, whatever that is called.
>
> The 625-line b&w standard is called CCIR, which also is the name of a
> now gone organisation: Committee Consultative Internationelle Radio
> (French).  CCIR is now been replaced by ITU-T.
>
>> SECAM is also built on the same b&w standard as PAL.
>
> I know -- CCIR/SECAM transmissions can be viewed as black-and-while on
> a CCIR/PAL TV.
>
>
>> Composite video might strictly speaking be neither NTSC nor PAL because
>> these are defined as RF signals. But on the other hand they even stamp
>> PAL or NTSC on DVD's while they are absolutely not that because they
>> contain only digital MPEG information. For DVD it refers to number of
>> lines and frame frequency only. I wonder if they would stamp SECAM on
>> the DVD's in France...
>
> They probably do --- and such a DVD ought to be playagle on e.g. a
> German "PAL" DVD player.

DVD's in France and Germany are sone 2 anyway, it is compatible, if not 
completely the same.

I would recommend this article by Mark P. Fishman
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.tandy/browse_thread/thread/221416fd336c4ec9/de2faf469cbe2199?lnk=st&q=color+burst+group:comp.sys.tandy&rnum=1&hl=no#de2faf469cbe2199

sorry about the awful link you probably have to paste it together.

It explains why we Europeans often refers to NTSC as 'Never The Same Color'. 
What I learnt while I was searching to confirm what I thoughts is that SECAM 
is older than PAL and that PAL really is better. It is not always best to be 
first if there is room for improvement. Anyway NTSC has its points and the 
difference in quality is nowadays mostly number of lines and frame 
frequency.

To write something OT too: When I changed motherboard to an NTSC in my A//e 
from PAL (to get 60Hz output from my RGB card) I wondered why there was no 
color/b&w switch.

I found that it is not necessary because the composite video of NTSC has its 
Y component at full all the time and it expects the color decoding of the 
color NTSC monitor/TV to filter the Y component so you would not get 
vertical stripes.

On the PAL motherboard the switch changes the signal so in color mode the Y 
component will vary and you get grayscale on a b&w monitor and in b&w mode 
you get b&w on a color monitor/TV.

On the framegrabber I do get some vertical stripes on the grey "colors", it 
looks like interference so there the filtering isn't perfect (with the 
settings I have) or would this be typical for NTSC or is it a feature of my 
framegrabber? (I can't really trust my TV either because it is only an NTSC 
compatible PAL TV.)

Knut