Re: Apple IIe + ProDOS = Headache

[pausch@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter)]

In article <u8udnSTNx9V7X0DdRVn-hg@comcast.com>,
Bill Garber <willy46pa@comcast DOT net> wrote:
> "Paul Schlyter" <pausch@saaf.se> wrote in message
> news:cbkco5$j4b$1@merope.saaf.se...
>: In article <veOdnUqPY_XhOEDdRVn-iQ@comcast.com>,
>: Bill Garber <willy46pa@comcast DOT net> wrote:
>:>
>:>"Paul Schlyter" <pausch@saaf.se> wrote in message
>:>news:cbjkhr$aml$1@merope.saaf.se...
>:>: In article <p6OdnfVj9thO20HdRVn_iw@comcast.com>,
>:>: Bill Garber <willy46pa@comcast DOT net> wrote:
>:>:
>:>:> Therefore it would either be advisable to update
>:>:> all Apple IIs to 65C02
>:>:
>:>: It's not at all advisable, since it cannot be done.
>:>: The 65C02 does not work on a lot of (most?) Apple II
>:>: and II+ machines.  My own Apple II+ is such a machine
>:>: - the 65C02 just refuses to work there; I've tried.
>:>: On the IIe the 65C02 works fine though.
>:>
>:>There are mods that may need to be done to allow the
>:>65C02 to run on such machines. Have you tried those?
>:
>: Nope!  I just tried to replace the CPU chips.
> 
> Well, there ya go then.
> 
>: However, don't you think it's unreasonable to expect these
>: mods to be done on each and every Apple II/II+ out there?
> 
> Only if you or they want to attempt them. I never
> implied there should be a blanket mod over the
> entire A2 community.
 
Yet you did write:
 
# Therefore it would either be advisable to update
# all Apple IIs to 65C02
 
and you made no exceptions.
 
> I did mean that if someone wants 65C02 capability then
> doing ALL of their individually owned Apple IIs would
> solve the bug issue.
 
Then you should have written e.g.:
 
# Therefore it would either be advisable to update
# all YOUR Apple IIs to 65C02
 
> Now I see that there is a fix for P8 V.1.3,
> so no need for any mods except to the program.
> 
>:>Also, the MCT SpeedDemon is a nice alternative to the
>:>65C02 in the motherboard, if you can find one that is.
>:
>: ...if...... :-) ..... again, most Apple II/II+ owners
>: won't find one....
> 
> I've found several just this year. Wasn't so hard. Just
> gotta keep your eyes open.
 
Sure, you can find a few -- but probably not enough for all Apple
II's ....
 
>:>: And even if it could be done, are there enough 65C02
>:>: chips in the world to fill the need if every 6502
>:>: Apple II would upgrade its CPU to the 65C02 ?
>:>
>:>I'm sure we could dig up quite a few of them if the
>:>need should arise. I haven't looked too awfully much,
>:>but I have seen small quantities of them available.
>:>
>:>: Finally: what's the point of upgrading the CPU of an
>:>: Apple II which either doesn't work, or will be thrown
>:>: away?  Yep, that is the actual fate of a lot of
>:>: Apple II's....
>:>
>:>That is inevitably the fate of everything on this earth,
>:>but if you would rather run a II or II+ than get a //e,
>:
>: A II+ is what I have....
> 
> With //e's as cheap and as plentiful as they are, why
> fight with the II+. Get a //e. Problems solved.
 
Because if I today bought an old //e it would lack the nostalgic
value my II+ has, and thus I would see no reason to use it.
 
>:>then trying to upgrade its CPU would be the next best
>:>thing.
>:
>: I'm quite content running only software which works on the
>: original 6502
> 
> Then in that case, you should have ignored my posts
> and went on your merry way with it, right??
 
I would if you hadn't addressed your recommendation to all Apple II's
with a 6502 CPU.  Yes, that includes my II+.
 
>:> I wanted to learn programming on the Apple II,
>:>so I got myself a II+ with the idea that starting nearer
>:>beginning of the line might assist me in the endeavor,
>:>but I discovered that it was limited in what I could do,
>:>and I've sold it. Now I use a //e and IIgs only. Seems
>:>I can perform everything on those that I could on the II+
>:>and more, so I agree, why upgrade the II or II+, when
>:>those do just fine.
>:
>: ....but don't you think it would be even better to switch
>: to a more modern and much more capable computer?
>:
>: Running a II/II+/IIe/IIgs is, as far as I'm concerned, done
>: only for one reason: nostalgia.  Whatever one might learn
>: there is of limited use in the modern world of computing.
> 
> That's not true sir. Basic, Assembly, and "C" have not
> changed that awful much in 20 years.
 
Not true.....
 
Basic: ever heard about a beast called "Visual Basic" ????  Now you
might argue "but that's not Basic", however it's still sold under the
name of Basic.  And it's manufactured by the same company which once
made Applesoft Basic.
 
Assembly: as you may know, assembly language is very processor
specific.  The assembly language of a modern SPARC, PPC or even x86
differs a lot from the assembly language of the good ol' 6502.  With
experience only from 6502 assembly language you're not likely to
perform well in assembly language programming on the SPARC, PPC
or x86.
 
C: here you probably got closest, but C has actually evolved as well.
C evolved into C++, and C++ is just far too complex to be implemented
on a 6502 machine.  But OK, C++ is another language so let's stick to
C.  The most recent C standard is C-99 (where the '99' refers to the
year when the standard was released) with some significant additions,
and I bet you will never ever see a C-99 compiler for the Apple II.
I don't think there's even a full C-89 compiler available for the
Apple II -- do you know any such compiler which supports e.g. locales
or wide characters?  No, the C compilers for the Apple II supported
the older K&R C dialect, a C dialect which now is hopelessly
outdated.  And some didn't even do that -- IMO the nicest C compiler
available for the Apple II (Leor Zolman's BDS C, runnable on Apple II
CP/M) supported a subset of K&R C, with a number of nonstandard
extensions.  I used BDS C for my first programming attemtps in C,
back in 1982.  Back then it was reasonable to do so, because
alternative C compilers were considerably more expensive, and they
were not that much better.  Today the situation is vastly different:
much more powerful C compilers are available for free (gcc) and much
more powerful hardware is cheaper than ever.  So using an Apple II
today to learn C programming would be just plain stupid -- if your
objective would be to learn C rather than to play around with the
Apple II just for the fun of it.
 
So if you still want to argue "Basic, Assembly, and "C" have not
changed that awful much in 20 years", well, why don't you learn these
languages thoroughly on the Apple II, and then put that as your major
programming experience in your CV when applying for a job as a
software developer?  I wish you good luck.... no you don't need to
actually take the job if you don't want to, but you can do it to see
how many job offers you get and to test whether your claim "Basic,
Assembly, and "C" have not changed that awful much in 20 years"
really is true.
 
>:>:> or eliminate ProDOS version 1.3 altogether.
>:>:> Better safe that sorry.  :o)
>:>:
>:>: Why should person A be prevented from running ProDOS 1.3
>:>: on his 65C02 equipped Apple II just because person B, who
>:>: have no intentions to run ProDOS 1.3, does not want to
>:>: upgrade his Apple II's CPU to a 65C02 ????
>:>
>:>I was actually speaking to person's A and B individually,
>:>rather than to the Apple II community as a whole. Each
>:>person should decide whether to upgrade to 65C02 or get
>:>rid of ProDOS 1.3 on an individual basis. Is that clearer?
>:
>: If so, you should avoid advicing to upgrade "all Apple IIs".
>: Yep, you expressed yourself that way.
> 
> No, in actuality, I should just avoid having this
> discussion with someone like you who prefers to
> just be argumentative. :o)
 
Why not instead just admit that you phrased yourself badly?  In your
situation I would have immediately admitted that and rephrased myself.
 
> Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
> Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
> Email - willy46pa @ comcast DOT net
> Change DOT to a dot to contact me
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