Re: Is there a version of Lynx for the Apple II/IIGS?

["Bill Garber" <willy46pa@comcast.net>]

All I can say is I certainly did take it all wrong. I sort of
grouped you in with the old timers who if you say one little
thing negative about Apple II, jump on you like mosquitos
on a blood bank. I too have gained more support from those
who have either given up or backed out for the very same
reasons you gave. It is a terrible thing when some of the newbies
actually wish to join the ranks of the Apple II enthusiasts and
constantly get the runabout when they ask for advice or help
on things that are in the books, but can't get the books, or have
to pay exhorbitantly for them when they become available, such
as I've had to do. I recently asked where I could access a slot
assignment on the IIc, and guess what I got more help from an
Atari guy. In fact the interface I am fashioning it from was initially
designed for the Atari XL. Wait til they read that one. ;-) LOL
I'm in for it now. Well, seeing how you were berated when you
mentioned wanting to devise a machine based on your feeling of
what the IIgs would have become had it been allowed to evolve,
I can't blame you for everything you said. I do agree, there are those
who grab up Apple IIs cheap just to say that they have one, not
to use one. I should have realized what you meant, but I was also
having my fill of the BxllSxxT that we seem to have to take from the
old timers everyday. My desire to attend KFest has all but diminished
to nothing, and unless I finish something by May 1st to show off, I
doubt I will be there. It is a sad day, believe me. Thanks for clearing
that up and I hope we can remain friends and possibly collaborate
on future Apple II improvements.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
http://garberstreet.netfirms.com

Supertimer <supertimer@aol.com> wrote in message
20030404042901.08226.00000119@mb-cn.aol.com">news:20030404042901.08226.00000119@mb-cn.aol.com...
> "Bill Garber" <willy46pa@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> I think part of the problem is with the users not just programmers.
> >> The truth of the matter is that the Apple IIGS users of today
> >> are not the same as the Apple IIGS users of yesteryear.
> >
> >I agree that it's true, we are not the same as those of yesteryear, but
> >coming from Atari 8 to PC, back to Apple IIgs and Mac SE, I have to
> >also add this. I am totally devoted to Apple II and what it was and is.
> >I am working diligently to improve not only the IIgs but the IIc and
> >//e and II+. I have 4 projects going at once, 2 of which I work on for
> >hours out of each day. I, too, run into the proverbial brick wall when
> >I post and ask for advice from the alleged "older, bought mine for
> >$1000's group". Yes, I dug mine out of a dumpster because I saw
> >some value in it. I didn't even hear of Apple II until a few years ago.
> >The first Apple I ever saw was a Mac classic. I had no idea what
> >the Apple II's were.
>
> Uh-oh, Bill I think you have read my post the wrong way.  In no
> way was I referring to you.  I guess I should have qualified:
> "many" people who bought their IIGS recently at a thrift shop.
>
> There is nothing wrong with finding a rare item at such outlets.
> I myself got my AMD K6-III+ chips at a surplus outlet because
> I recognized their potential.  A K6 chip with 256k on-die full
> speed cache that clocks to 616Mhz is something special and
> something that some users discovered when AMD got rid of
> these.
>
> Back to topic, please read on to see what I meant.
>
> >> The Apple IIGS users of yesteryear thought of their computers
> >> as premium machines.  We were willing to spend money on
> >> them or spend hours hunched over HyperCard or HyperStudio
> >> to produce our own.  This is the way you and I think and all
> >> those who actually BOUGHT their IIGS from Apple, not some
> >> thrift shop.
> >>
> >> I might anger some thrift shop IIGS user by saying this but
> >> we ARE different.  There is obviously something different
> >> about someone who spent $800 to buy a IIGS CPU unit
> >> (and more for a hard drive, floppies, RAM, and monitor) than
> >> someone who spends $10 at a thrift shop to buy the same.
> >
> >I'm not angered, not even perturbed. I consider myself lucky to
> >even be able to find an Apple II, surprised even. Thank God the
> >thrift shops saw them as something worth keeping long enough
> >for someone to find them. They could have well thought of them
> >as junk, but they didn't. More people have them than I even dreamed
> >would at this point.
>
> It is not users like you I am referring to.  You have obviously
> took the time to learn all about the IIGS and are using it
> to the full potential of the machine.  I would do the same
> if I found an Amiga or Atari ST at a thrift shop or surplus
> store.
>
> You do so because of your own experience as an Atari
> user.  I would do so with an Atari because of my Apple II
> and IIGS experience.
>
> We are the same.
>
> I want to clarify the type of user I am talking about and
> those users are not like us.  Look up my old csa2 posts
> a few years back.  You will see that there is one big
> post that is loaded with info for the newbie user that I
> would post every time I found one.  Like your efforts to
> develop a scan-doubler for the IIGS, I was trying to give
> new users a resource with which to explore the IIGS
> with.
>
> However, I was attacked more than a few times by users.
> Some were Mac users who just collected the IIGS who
> actively tried to derail my efforts by telling the new users
> NOT to buy products from IIGS innovators at the links
> I had listed.
>
> That's the same as if you were to develop the scan-
> doubler and I were to refer someone to you when they
> ask the ever-present "VGA to IIGS" question and then
> some Mac user who sunk $2000 into his Mac but who
> bought his IIGS from a thrift shop as a fixture reply to
> my post by saying "$25 for a scan-doubler for a dead
> computer, that's stupid."
>
> I have encountered this type of mentality from those
> latter Apple II users one too many times so I got tired
> of it and left the csa2 completely.
>
> >> For us, the IIGS was a real computer and more than that,
> >> we IIGS users actually used our computers as our main
> >> PCs for many years.  To do word processing, play games,
> >> go online, do work, do school, everything.  I did ALL the
> >> written work for my years in college on my IIGS.  And,
> >> being "premium" computer users we were even more
> >> responsible than many of the teenage geeks who use
> >> today's PCs in that we actually BOUGHT our software
> >> instead of seek out "warez" (I'm not talking about the
> >> dying days of the IIGS and the old flame wars but back
> >> in the golden days of the IIGS when AWGS was new
> >> and InCider and A+ magazines were on the shelves).
> >
> >I must say that had I discovered Apple II earlier, I too may
> >have used mine for everything as well. I went thru every Atari
> >there was trying to find a machine that COULD do it all. I
> >ended up going to PC and still couldn't do it all. I only wish I
> >could go back and discover the IIe, IIc and IIgs.
>
> Same here.  I would like to collect an Amiga, an Atari ST,
> and a C128 and expand each of them to the limits.  Of
> course the first place I would look for the three would be
> at the thrift shop.
>
> I shouldn't have grouped all thrift shop (latter day) IIGS
> users together.  What I should have called the group is
> the "collector, IIGS naysayer" type.  Please forgive the
> confusion.
>
> >> But today, the Apple II and IIGS has a lower status than
> >> the Amiga, the Atari ST, even the Commodore 64.  Even
> >> the unpopular Commodore 128.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >>
> >> I think the answer is simply that we REAL IIGS users
> >> have been overrun by the thrift shop Apple II users.  The
> >> thrift shop folks are here because of the Apple II's past
> >> success.  The schools flooded the thrift shops with their
> >> Apple IIs.  Thus, what was once considered a premium
> >> computer is now considered a cheap dirt computer.
> >
> >I must disagree, the biggest downfall of the Apple II is
> >incompatibility. All those other machines could use each
> >others hardware and software to a certain degree much
> >easier than the Apple II. Even today there is no way to
> >access an Apple II disk on a PC. Most others can be.
> >Even the hardware that made that possible is gone.
>
> Well, the Commodore 64's 1541 drives also used the
> GCR encoding of the Apple II so they would also be
> disc-incompatible with the PC.  The C128's 1571 drive
> could read both MFM and GCR so that could be a
> bridge to the PC but the C128 was nowhere near as
> popular as the C64.  The Apple II also has the Apple
> II Disk Controller (ie. SuperDrive card) which could be
> connected to the SuperDrive to allow it to read
> MS-DOS disks.
>
> The Apple II wasn't very PC hardware compatible but
> neither was the C64.  The Amiga and Atari ST I know
> were more PC compatible because they used MFM
> floppy drives.
>
> I suppose the reason for this was that the Apple II was
> an Apple.  The Apple IIGS, to Apple's credit, was
> somewhat compatible with MACINTOSH hardware.
> You could use Mac MIDI boxes, Mac serial cables,
> Mac ADB keyboard and mice, even Mac DeskWriter
> printers through a Mac serial cable.  And standard
> external serial modems with a Mac serial cable.  And
> Mac external floppy drives.
>
> >> I mean just look at the reaction to my "MP3 conversion
> >> to the IIGS" article a while back.  We old timers
> >> shared our tinkering knowledge and experiences and
> >> had fun doing it.  Now doing so just attracts criticism
> >> from the thrift shop crowd.
> >>
> >> Talk nothing about monetary gain, even enthusiasm
> >> gets shot down these days in the Apple II world.
> >
> >It may sound a bit rude, but most of the shooting down
> >I receive is from the very enthusiasts of which YOU speak.
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
> >http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
>
> Unfortunately, this stems from a schism in the Apple II
> world some time ago.  First of all, let me reiterate that
> I was not grouping you into the "thrift shop/naysayer"
> category.  You are trying to actively develop a IIGS
> product out of enthusiasm for the machine and you
> try to help IIGS users.
>
> Here's the story from one who watched a time several
> years back when there were huge flame wars raging
> on csa2.  It must have been around 1997 if I recall
> correctly.  The IIGS market was shrinking.  Emulators
> started poping up.  There were very vocal Mac and PC
> users who collected the Apple II and IIGS but had no
> real interest in using the hardware.  They collected
> the real machine then played with the emulators and
> the disk images they swapped online.  While there
> was nothing wrong with that, they started to troll us
> IIGS users.  We were basically called idiots for trying
> to extend the life of a platform we liked to use.  That
> was the first indication of a schism.
>
> Part II in the schism: IIGS emulators started appearing.
> The thrift shop/naysayer group started to swap IIGS
> software that programmers of the old-timer group
> were still actively supporting.  Bang!  A flame war
> lasting years was ignited.  At the end the result was
> the death of the IIGS market.
>
> A lot of the old-timer group are bitter but I absolutely
> do not agree with them when they start attacking
> new users who are enthusiastic.  I do not agree
> when they try to squelch such enthusiam from their
> own bitterness.
>
> So you see how this place died.  Bitterness from the
> old-timers.  Attacks from the thift shop/naysayer
> group.  I couldn't take it any more so I left.
>
> Believe me, people like me were squeezed from both
> sides.  The bitter old-timers had a sort of Bush-style
> "with us or against us" attitude and if you were not
> with either side they still grouped you as part of the
> problem.  But the naysayer group were not all that
> helpful either because they actively discourage the
> support of new products or enthusiasm.  It was like
> 10% of csa2 on both extremes were taking the rest
> of us hostage.


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