Re: Apple and the Holy War

[CUTblakeney@home.com (Jeff Blakeney)]

I knew it was a mistake to reply to that message but I made my bed so
I guess I have to lay in it.

On 17 May 2000 13:00:56 +0200, pausch@saafNOSPAM.se (Paul Schlyter)
wrote:

>I don't think so!
> 
>You're not even aware of most of the computers in your home -- you
>probably have at least a dozen of them.  They're embedded in your
>refrigerator, your stove, your dishwasher, your TV, your VCR, your
>telephone, your elevator, and maybe in many other places too.  Do
>all these embedded computers have a GUI?  No!  Are you going to throw
>them out just because of that?  I don't think you will....

I could have sworn we were talking about PERSONAL computers and not
embedded systems or dedicated hardware.  However, if I made an
incorrect assumption, I apologize.

By the way, all the items you mention about may not have GUIs but they
don't have CLIs either.  In fact, most of them don't even have
computers in them.  They are electronics devices but they certainly
aren't computers.

Oh, and I'm quite aware of the technology that is all around me.  I'm
an Electronics Technologist (well, not technically as I never did get
my diploma because of three missed credits; one failed course, one
missed co-op work term and not finishing my final technical report)
and I've been a computer programmer for almost 19 years.

>Even what you think of as "one computer" is most likely half-a-dozen
>computers (assuming you have a modern computer, such as a Pentium II
>or III, or a PowerMac -- or perhaps even a SparcStation?): the
>keyboard has its own embedded computer controlling it,

That isn't a computer.  It is a piece of hardware that watches what
key switches are pressed, converts that into a binary code and sends
the code out the cable serially.  The chip that does this in PC
keyboards is called an encoder.  There is a corresponding decoder on
your motherboard to turn that serial signal back into a binary code so
that the processor can deal with it.

>the disk controller card has one,

Again just a piece of hardware that simply converts signals between
disk drives and a processor.

>each harddisk has one (which, among other things, shuffles around
>logical sectors and hides bad sectors, to give the illusion of a
>disk with no bad sectors),

Again just a piece of hardware that simply converts signals between
the drive heads and a disk controller.

>your modem has one,

Again just a piece of hardware the simply converts signals between the
phone line and a serial port.

>your video display has one ... et cetera et cetera.

Some displays might have processors in them for doing on screen menus
for adjustments (brightness, contrast, etc) but none of the monitors I
own do.  However, most monitors are just a piece of hardware that
simply converts signals between the video card and the display
(usually a cathode ray tube).

>Do all these computers have a GUI of their own?  No!

Neither do they have a CLI and as I've pointed out, most of these
aren't actually computers.  In the case of monitors with on screen
menus, that is a GUI and not a CLI.

>Most computers in the home aren't those all-purpose desktop computers
>we're working and playing with -- it's all those specialized embedded
>computers we're often not even aware of.  And they run fine without GUI's.

Again, I didn't think we were talking about embedded systems or
dedicated hardware and even if we were those devices run fine without
a CLI either.

>My Apple II+ has no GUI, and I still use it occasionally -- admittedly
>mostly for nostalgic reasons...

I sometimes use a command line when it is more convenient to do so but
most of the time I use the GUI environment on pretty much all the
computers I use regularly.  I also use a CLI if I don't have a choice.

>Both should be available in a desktop computer, to give the user a
>choice.  As I said above: "the total absence of a CLI, such as on the
>Macintosh, is an obstacle".  Since it doesn't take much to implement
>at least a rudimentary CLI, Apple must have left it out of the Mac not
>for practical but for ideological reasons -- and we've already read
>about holy wars at Apple... :)

I have lost count of the number of users that I have met that have no
idea what the Windows's MS-DOS prompt is, what is does or how to use
it.  They have the option to use it but they never do.

Most people simply have no need or desire to use a CLI.  This is why
computers didn't start getting popular until we had GUI interfaces
that were easy for the average person to use.

>Of course the total absence of a GUI can be an obstacle too, but it's
>more a convenience than a genuine ability that's lacking (with the
>obvious exception of heavily graphics-oriented software of course,
>such as DTP software).

I could live quite happily without a GUI.  It can be convenient at
times but it definitely isn't a necessity and I can accomplish the
same things using a GUI although it may take a few seconds longer.

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