Re: Apple 2 Where/How much

[spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector)]

In article supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) writes...

>>    Use common sense here, when I use the word "setup" I mean
>>a typical bunch of add-ons an Apple IIgs might include. Since
>>when are 17" monitors, laser printers, Gigabyte hardisks and
>>V.90 modems typical things?
>
>Joe Kohn has a laser printer.  I have a Second Sight SVGA
>card and a gigabyte hard drive.  These things are not
>uncommon as they seem.

    You do indeed, but are you and Joe planning to post your IIgs
systems up on comp.sys.apple2.marketplace anytime soon? I thought
not. How about we go have a look on Dejanews right now, and do a
filtered search for people selling IIgs systems with items *you*
describe as being so common. Go post the results back here and
surprise me, okay?

    Let's have some clarity here too: Add-on items that are NOT
Apple II specific and modern hold monetary worth (i.e. 17" SVGA
displays, laser printers, gigabyte sized hardrives). People who
have such items on their IIgs system are usually sharing them
between a PC or Mac, and thus are _not going anywhere_ if and
when they sell their Apple II. Stop adding them to the formula.

    Items like the Second Sight, ZipGS, SCSI controllers, RAM
cards, stereo cards are Apple II specific. These have *ZERO*
value in the mainstream marketplace, though admittely do hold
monetary value among die-hard Apple II users--within reason.
Adding these to an Apple II brings up its value among the II
crowd, but your reach a pricing plateau limit pretty quick.

    I consider myself a die-hard user and still do occasionally
sink money into my Apple II's, but I will never spend hundreds
of dollars at this stage in the game. Forgive me if I offend
anyone here, but someone who invests US$500-$1,000 towards an
Apple II today (as either a collector or serious user) seriously
needs to stop and think intelligently about what they're doing.

>Look Mitch, face it.  Setup means "computer plus
>peripherals."  It is just common sense.

    Yep, your right. However when I think about "peripherals"
I think of those you would normally find on a system of that
vintage. *You* can't stand the fact an Apple IIgs is worth 
so little these days that people are giving them away free, 
so you've decided you can change that by artifically inflating 
their price by throwing in things you would *NEVER*, *EVER* 
find bundled with a system for sale. If I'm wrong, you have 
Dejanews at your disposal, dig up the facts and present them
here.

    Scott, I'm not saying it is wrong to be using modern add-
ons with the IIgs, or pretending there are not people out there
like yourself who have connected them to their IIgs. What I'm
saying is your not going to find them on a IIgs that is being
put up for sale.

>>    Still, for the sake of your arguement, let's replace the
>>8088 with an almost equal worthless--in terms of monetary
>>market value---386DX-25. Now you have something that is also
>
>You don't get it.  You will find laser printers, SVGA,
>and gigabyte hard drives on a IIGS because they
>can be used better.  8088 is a bad argument.  286,
>however, is a valid argument because you can actually
>put those peripherals do good use with it.
>
>So if you ask me: is a 286 worth $300-$1000?  I'd say
>no.  If you ask me are some IIGS SETUPS worth
>$300-$1000, I'd say YES.

    You are the one who doesn't get it. 8088, 286, 386, IIgs,
it doesn't matter. None of these systems are worth hundreds
of dollars. The ridiculious examples of perhiperhals you've
tacked on ARE worth hundreds together, not the systems.

>>    How on earth can you justify selling a 12 year old computer
>>for the same amount or more? (bundling it with MODERN add-ons
>>which probably less than 5% of Apple IIgs's worldwide have is
>>not a valid arguement).
>
>WHERE did I say "sell a barebones IIGS for $300?"
>
>I said a IIGS SYSTEM!

    Okay, a typical Apple IIgs system setup consists of the follwing:
Apple IIgs CPU box, keyboard, mouse, 1 MB RAM, Apple 3.5 and 5.25,
RGB monitor and sometimes an ImageWriter II, joystick, 2400 baud
modem and fan. I'd generously price that being worth around $50.

    A non-typical Apple IIgs system setup might consist of such
standout things: 4-8 MB RAM, accelerator card, external hardrive,
extended keyboard, SuperDrive, 14.4K+ modem, Quickie scanner,
video capture card, SCSI controller and Second Sight board. Now,
putting a price on this is more difficult, though roughly I could
see it going for $150. Of course some of those items are very
valued or even rare among the Apple II community, so you'd do
better to sell it in pieces and get what you can. Now before you
burst out and tell me, "See, see, there you go, even you admit
it worth hundreds", the difference is it I'm talking about
selling it in pieces to INDIVIDUAL BUYERS. No one person is
going to see it and say, "Hey, I'll buy that for $800" but you
may find many separate buyers who'll purchase things at $50 a 
shot or more.

>>    How many times do I have to repeat it? A computer's monetary
>>worth DOES NOT EQUAL its usefulness and value to a user. I think
>>you just feel monetary worth is some rating system for computers.
>>Dollars are not gold stars. I think most people understand this
>
>Oh, I agree.  You are the one who started this.  All I said
>was that there are some IIGS SYSTEMS that are worth
>$300+ and I listed what such a system would look like
>(SVGA monitor, SVGA card, gigabyte hard drive, laser
>printer).  Like it are not, that's a IIGS SYSTEM.

    Like it or not, your chances of finding someone selling an
Apple IIgs with all those modern accessories are near *zero*.
On the flip side, your chances of finding an Apple IIgs user
using such items hooked up to his or her system is certainly
more feasible and likely. I should correction myself though,
I originally said less than 5% of all Apple IIgs's worldwide
have the items you describe. I wasn't thinking and would have
been more accurate to say 0.1% (5% of 1 million = 50,000;
0.1% of 1 million = 1,000).

ps - could you please stop forwarding every post you reply to
to my mailbox? It's getting to be as annoying as SPAM.

Mitchell Spector
spec@vax2.concordia.ca