Re: Csa2, Delphi, ...

[Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net>]

Todd P. Whitesel writes ...
> 
> Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net> writes:
> 
> >     The above does not place most "company reps" in a very good light.
> >You appear to be saying that these reps prefer to hang out on some
> >on-line service and avoid the mass of users because there, at least,
> >everyone pats them on the nose.
> 
> You are assuming that users on csa2 make up the majority of on-line A2 land.
> 
> That assumption was wrong when there _was_ an A2 market to support; it is
> probably still wrong now, and before it stops being wrong there will be NO
> A2 market to speak of. Okay, maybe it's finally happened -- but that means
> there are not enough users for companies to do proactive support anyway.
> 
> The vast majority of A2 users (until recently perhaps) logged into user
> group BBS's or pay services. They were "normal people" who used their Apples
> to write letters, do taxes, balance their checkbook, etc. Perhaps they
> still do. My father used our trusty Black ][+ for his taxes every year until
> he finally bought a PowerMac 8100 a few years ago. His ISP is tcs.wap.org,
> which is run by Washington Apple PI, one of the biggest Apple/Mac user's
> groups in the country.
> 
> There are many more users like my father than there are like us here on csa2.
>

     We used our II+ for all sorts of stuff, too. Our archive index is
still maintained on the II+.

     To be fair, I really have no idea how many users log onto Csa2 each
day. (That, by the way, is an invitation for more 'lurkers' to hop in
and post.)  It does, however, seem reasonable to conclude that many
users will check in and read Csa2 posts whether or not they subscribe to
AOL or Microsoft or some other major on-line service. Mainly,
subscribing to comp.sys.apple2 and participating does not cost anything.



 
> >     You say that their absence from Csa2 says nothing about their
> >interest in Apple II products. That may be. The question is: Do these
> >guys want to _sell_ any Apple II products? Or, is the whole idea of
> >selling just too much bother?
> 
> Selling to whiny students and cheapskates? Why bother when you can spend
> your time targeting user group representatives on the pay services?
>

     Just a moment ...  A check of comp.sys.apple2.marketplace indicates
quite a lot of activity. There appear to be no posts by several major
vendors; so, as you observe, the attitude by these vendors does appear
to be "why bother?"

     If that is their view of things, then it is hardly a wonder that
they do not sell their wares to Csa2 readers, is it?



 
> >     You mention user complaints. When you sell software to a user, he
> >or she is handing you $$$. Part of the deal is that you are supposed to
> >handle questions and complaints. If this presents terrible problems for
> >you, you may be in the wrong business.
> 
> There's a phone number printed in your manual. You -did- buy a manual right?
> 
> It is not a company's responsibility to troll for product support on the net.
> 
> Am I reading this right? Do you really think that it is their job to wipe
> your nose for you because you bought 1 copy of their product? Grow up buddy.
> The golden days of shrink-wrapped software are very, very dead.

     The above squirming about rather avoids the issue. Your initial
claim was that the vendors who avoid advertising on Csa2 groups are
motivated in part by a wish to avoid complaining users. The response was
that this is a dumb reason to not advertise. How a company deals with
complaints or whether it informs customers about ways to complain has
nothing to do with failing to advertising your product to potential
buyers.



> 
> >     What is it about "the character of this particular newsgroup" which
> >you find objectionable?
> 
> I cannot remember a time in which comp.sys.apple2 was not ARROGANT.
> It turns lots of people off -- people who used to be very active here
> when there was an A2 market worth supporting.

    "Arrogant"? Evidently, you are back to the 'Delphi vs Csa2'
business. The observation that most current on-line Apple II users
depend upon a Csa2 group rather than some for-pay on-line service is a
logical inference.

     For a time, certainly, AOL was very important; but, that changed
when AOL scrapped any pretense of A2 support. That is why Dr. Tom went
to the time and trouble to contact AOL and put together a project which
moved the AOL Apple II archives to Ground.


     Things change. Most Apple II users depend upon a PC or Mac to
access the internet. Net beginners often start on AOL or MS-Net and move
on to a pure ISP. More and more it is the net, the whole net, where
things happen. Once a user becomes comfortable on the net, what can any
on-line service offer that is worth the cost of joining?

     That a newsgroup, Csa2, should end up as the hub of the Apple II
universe was inevitable. On the wide-open world-spanning internet, it is
where users meet.

     If Delphi has interesting activities and services to offer Apple II
users, this is the place to come. Perhaps, if Delphi placed an
occasional ad on 'marketplace or an ANNouncement here, Delphi could
_sell_ the idea of joining to more users.


> 
> I think the real question here is what there is about the character of this
> particular newsgroup that you think is so _admirable_.
>

     For starters, we do a lot of interesting useful things here ...

     Users helping users set up and troubleshoot hardware and software
     Experimenters suggesting and trying out ideas for improvements
     Programmers, including 'regular users', writing software to
       solve problems, add capabilities, and provide entertainment
     Projects to build archives of software and information
     Individual ventures to sell software and hardware
     Support for user groups
     Passionate battles over strategies to break hardware bottlenecks
     ...

     Mainly, this particular newsgroup is admirable for its
participants. From them spring the toughness, flexibility, variety,
generosity, and freedom which make it a special, fun place to be.    
     

Rubywand